Scrap school catchments now

[Momentumummy]

If Labour wants to eventually end parents buying privilege through private schools, it needs to go after school catchments. How can it be fair to decide schools by distance to gates when it often depends on ability to pay rent or mortgage which will usually be higher in catchment for good schools?

The only fair system is a lottery one by borough (at least for secondary when kids are old enough to travel alone). You should be allocated a place within your borough but it should be randomized and not based on distance to gates.

That does appear to be AI generated and contrasts with @Overturnedmum's previous posts which suggest he/she speaks EFL (there's obviously nothing wrong with EFL, but the difference is stark).

I attended a grammar from year 9 onwards, I had to drop German as it wasn’t taught, the single language available was french. At my comp you had a choice of french, german and spanish from year 7 onwards. I wasn’t allowed to join French, so when those lessons were on I had to just sit at reception (library was used as a classroom, so you couldn’t access it).

I was frankly bored, teachers relied on textbooks and self learning, I wasn’t unusual for a lesson to just be a set of page numbers on the board while the teacher either ignored you for an hour or left. We also weren’t taught art, food technology or textiles because they’re for girls. “Oh thats for girls” or “are you a girl?” (Used when you got something wrong) was a far too common response from staff.

Clubs were limited too, I would have been much better remaining at my comprehensive, or going to another comprehensive when we moved.

This thread has definitely jumped the shark now. I think I'll wait for the next one!

How clever of you to mix up the broader concepts of education and tutoring! Tutoring, in this context, is meant specifically to supplement formal education/training by providing additional support, often not initiated by the kids themselves, and specifically preparing for exams.

This kind of structured and focused support is particularly beneficial for younger children. As they grow older, they might develop more independent learning skills, potentially reducing the impact of tutoring.

Have you exhausted your arguments already? Didn’t learn enough MFL in your old grammar school?

@Overturnedmum please stop now. You're sounding increasingly unhinged and combative, and you've been posting non stop for days, often in garbled posts. Please get some rest and give this a rest. Whatever merit your arguments may have once had are gone now.

Grammar School Supporter:
Grammar school students can learn at the level and speed suited to their ability and they can benefit.

Reply:
How revolutionary! Comprehensive schools, with their sets, allow students to learn at a level and speed suited to their abilities within a cohort of peers who can achieve similarly. This dynamic adjustment caters to a wider variety of abilities on a subject-by-subject and regular basis.

Grammar School Supporter:
And let’s not forget selective private schools. They clearly deliver better results than the comprehensive system.

Reply:
Of course, private schools have on average three times the funding per child compared to the state system. The value added is obviously not due to academic selection.

Grammar School Supporter:
Look at schools like White Lodge, Purcell School, and Chet. They do selective intake too.

Reply:
These are not considered mainstream schools. They are specialized institutions that focus on providing intensive training in the arts alongside academic education. Mainstream state education doesn’t provide this, and in fact, these are independent/private schools with separate bursary and funding provisions, some provided by the government.

Grammar schools and comprehensives are mainstream state schools with a huge overlap in terms of curriculum as well as pathways forward for their students.

Grammar School Supporter:
But the comprehensive school I know doesn’t do Ancient Greeks… Are you using AI? Grammar schools in London are predominantly Asian migrants. Now you are a racist. You sound like an EFL… Isn’t more choice a wonderful thing?

Reply:
Great, now you run out of argument, shall we ask a Year 5 student to do a referendum on whether grammar schools should be kept?

@Overturnedmum - you really do sound like a male gap year student now, having just been rejected from Oxbridge (for dogmatic reasons) rebelling against your own parents for putting your through the 11 plus.

It takes more than two to make a quarrel

What a random thought! Why not picture me as a student from a grammar school, traumatized, who somehow ended up studying at ETH, with my sights set on MIT?

I’m not muddling up anything, unlike you. You have made endless posts talking completely inaccurate nonsense; when people who actually know what they’re talking about have tried to correct you, you have ignored them and continued with your nonsense. Finally, it’s culminated in this beyond ridiculous post. You really should stop because not only have you discredited yourself but you’re actively embarrassing yourself now.

You can surely dismiss anything you don’t like to hear as ‘completely inaccurate nonsense'

How revolutionary! Comprehensive schools, with their sets, allow students to learn at a level and speed suited to their abilities within a cohort of peers who can achieve similarly. This dynamic adjustment caters to a wider variety of abilities on a subject-by-subject and regular basis.

Lovely theory. In practice however...

@Overturnedmum - if no one tutored for the 11+, would you be ok with grammar schools? Is the concept of a separate school for those more academically able to have a tailored education wrong?

Also @Overturnedmum - tutoring is not just about passing academic exams! Music tutoring to learn an instrument and/or pass music exams, performing arts tutoring often is also aimed towards passing exams.

tutoring is education - it’s 1-2-1 or occasionally small group private teaching. There’s a vast range of subjects and areas tutored. Sometimes towards particular exams, sometimes to just get better at something a child (or adult) is interested in.

Of course there are different meaning of tutoring. Please look up thread my reply:

"Tutoring, in this context, is meant specifically to supplement formal education/training by providing additional support, often not initiated by the kids themselves, and specifically preparing for exams."

@Overturnedmum - you do realise that the savvy parent makes sure their DC are prepared/tutored etc for comp sets as well, knowing full well the higher sets are better, with less disruption. At least 30% of our state primary school do just that, as well as moving into the right catchment.

No I dismiss nonsense as nonsense. Education happens to be something I know a lot about - I’m fortunate to have taught in a range of schools, in different parts of the country, I tutor, I have written entrance exams, I currently live in an 11+ area, I have children in different schools and I have lots and lots of teacher friends. I therefore have a lot of experience both from the viewpoint of teacher and parent. You clearly have absolutely none of this experience as you say things over and over that are simply untrue. You are entitled to disagree with the 11+, indeed with selective education in general, but as you have tunnel vision and seem incapable of reflecting on either your own words or those of others, you simply push yourself into a place where no one can take you seriously. I could go onto a page about the NHS and declare that the provision is rubbish or bedside manner is lacking or whatever but as I don’t work in the NHS or know many people who do and as I haven’t had any extensive treatment in hospital, if a nurse or a surgeon told me how things actually work, I would graciously stand corrected, not dig my heels in. You, however, have no interest in the realities of education or how things really work- you have simply made things up and then repeatedly shouted them from the rooftops. Perhaps you should read the comments of someone like CurlewKate who disagrees with selective education but who can engage in reasoned debate and reflect on her own comments.

I am not against sixth forms using exams or GCSEs to select students. I am not against universities using A levels or exams to select students. However, I am against, at age 10,using exam selection as sole method to segregate children into different secondary schools.

Because it is heavily influenced by factors such as parental input and tutoring. Many children have not matured enough academically at that stage to determine their academic ability or suitability. Additionally, it is an ineffective use of public education resources.

Interesting. I wonder where you are that parents have the spare cash to do this? Not at all my experience of a comprehensive.
We could have afforded it but didn't need to. But I'd say most other parents didn't have the cash. It just wasn't a thing. No thriving tutoring economy in our small rural town.

You clearly have absolutely none of this experience as you say things over and over that are simply untrue

In terms of your experience, you may think you haven’t encountered certain situations, but that doesn’t mean they are incorrect or untrue. I also have children in different schools and many teacher friends. I have extensive experience from both the perspectives of a teacher and a parent. Additionally, I have included numerous credible research studies and statistics in my argument, which you have tried to dismiss without providing any evidence to support your personal experience.

To build up with your argument maybe you should try to point out any specific points that I have outlined is not true, and backup with concrete evidence?

@faffadoodledo - I am in London and things are competitive all over, parents know exactly how the setting happens, some comps have grammar streams etc, people talk, it is just a full on competitive vibe and probably also the reason why we outperform the rest of the country educationally speaking.

It happens a lot at the comp my DC1 went to, in a leafy area of London. That's why its exam results used to be very good - slightly less so these days as MC is being squeezed and has less cash for 1-2-1 tutoring in each core subject. The maths centre on the high street is still thriving though.

Do many teachers go about insulting people on the internet? We're in trouble then...

Unfortunately, I attended a bog standard comp for GCSEs and, consequently, I don't speak any foreign languages. 😥