Scrap school catchments now

[Momentumummy]

If Labour wants to eventually end parents buying privilege through private schools, it needs to go after school catchments. How can it be fair to decide schools by distance to gates when it often depends on ability to pay rent or mortgage which will usually be higher in catchment for good schools?

The only fair system is a lottery one by borough (at least for secondary when kids are old enough to travel alone). You should be allocated a place within your borough but it should be randomized and not based on distance to gates.

You can mix kids all you want, but the reality remains the same: parents who don’t value education will continue to: not enforce school attendance, opt out of parent evenings, not read with their kids, not check homework, etc. Parents who do value education will continue to: read with their kids, engage with the school, support with homework, get tutors, etc. Kids zig-zagging across the county is a logistical nightmare (and expensive—kids who could previously walk would now be on a school bus, understandably paid for by the local authority, as it would not be due to family choice). Plonking a pupil from a household where education isn’t valued in a desk next to a pupil whose family does value education isn’t the magic answer. It’s naive to think that sitting next to a “swot” is going to undo another pupil’s family’s cultural foundation about education.

Yeah, we can't stand "clever people" around us, it's a psychological trauma. Everything is, actually - some people are more beautiful than others, some earn more money, some win lottery - it's all unfair and the fight is never ending.

Good luck!

You seem to contradict yourself - one minute students don't make any more progress in a grammar than in a comprehensive & then a bit later on you say that comprehensive school students do just as well. So why not leave the grammar schools as they are? I don't believe they get any extra funding.

You are not the first person who attended a grammar school before, can not comprehend this issue and claim is contradict. So I won't bother to repeatedly reply again, please look up thread yourself.

I am wondering if you (or your DC) missed out on passing 11+. I never hear anyone in real life who is especially bothered about the issue.

Neither. Yes I know a lot of people and parents, in real life care this issue.

If no space then it will prioritise non selective school to expand PAN. In London grammar schools are minority in any councils.

see this:
Take children out for a week? | Mumsnet

This is the difference in parental attitudes which leads to differences in educational outcomes. Then it's going to be blamed on deprived background.

Exactly, my son is one of them. He just got a 9 in GCSE maths and an A in additional maths. He is going on to do A level maths and further maths at college. Many of his friends got the same grades. Yes they all went to the local comp.

I would sign up for your project, we definitely need much more flexibility within comprehensive system.

It's not going to happen though I'm afraid - birth rates are falling and large areas will depopulate so it will be impossible to have massive schools in many areas.

Thank you. It’s refreshing to hear a more sensible discussion about potential alternatives.

at least a dozen classes for the subjects that all, or nearly all, students take (double these numbers would be better)

And proponents of mixed-ability teaching would object to setting.

I believe the number of sets per subject can be reduced to 4-5 for 200 students, instead of 12 for 300. Limiting the number of sets and subjects, with fewer in the lower years and more detailed ones in the senior years, would be beneficial

It would allow students to work at faster paces in some subjects and slower paces in others, as most appropriate for them.

It would also allow a more diverse student body to participate in less academic subjects and foster better social interaction.

well resourced parents will continue to cluster around the perceived "best" schools, and that schools in poorer neighborhoods will, on average, achieve lower results.

In the nonselective school, implement maximum commute time constraint, incorporating an element of lottery or randomness will significantly reduce this clustering effect.

Schools like this would not satisfy the fans of the super-selectives; their effective catchment areas would be, perhaps, 20,000-40,000 people if you had fixed, unique catchments, somewhat more if you allowed parental choice of schools. At any rate, far fewer than the millions who live in (sort of) commuting distance of Queen Elizabeth's School, or Henrietta Barnett.

I would not have superselective schools with unique catchment areas, as these demands come from parent groups that 1. are not genuinely SEN and 2. do not add value to state education outcomes. These demands should be directed to the private sector for the best.

Additionally, there can be regional subject centers, like outreach programs for STEM or arts subjects, extending from high-performing sixth-form schools or university partner to provide specialized academic support for all comprehensive schools in the region.

@CurlewKate

it's the impact, academically, socially and psychologically that their presence has on the secondary modern kids.

What about top sets in a school? Surely that impacts on self esteem? Students seem to know which classes are the more academic ones. In my school there is no official set 1 it has a random letter but the students work it out anyway.

There js plenty of chance for students to move the set a certain subject during the school time.

There is only one 11plus exam that fixated for at least 5 years.

There's the 12+ and 13+ exams for any children that failed the 11+ exam, so things aren't set for 5 years.

https://exampapersplus.co.uk/advice/12-plus-year-7/13-plus-exam-guide-parents/

You clearly doesn't familiar with this system. A policy exist does not mean it works. The grammar area with this policy in place is extremely limited and they don't reserve place for late transfer even you pass the exam.

You clearly doesn't familiar with this system.

"I'd never heard of those exams and it blows my argument out of the water."

Of course, the Comprehensive school also allows for children to be in a top set for a subject they excel in, and a lower set for one they struggle in.

Grammar schools also have sets, so that's not unique to comprehensive schools.

This must vary by area, I joined a grammar school at the start of year nine due to us moving.

Occasionally place, by law, should be available at any state school, if available. It is less about area but chance.

The uniqueness is selective intake at age 10 by an exam. There is nothing else special.

The only thing that offends you @Overturnedmum is that 11 plus selection is in your opinion more about the parents than the kids innate ability. Because nature and nurture are equally weighted in education and the older the kid, actually the more the application by the kid comes out, which however, is also massively determined by nurture.

We did a mock test for grammar today. All really lovely dedicated parents and children in the playground waiting to do it really nicely. No pushing, shoving, attention seeking nor running around even. Just a whole lot of lovely patient 10 year olds waiting their turn nicely.,Probably most teachers’ dream, every single family there. Why they are not allowed to be together I just don’t understand. Hard working patient and honest families, but no, they must be causing social harm.

What? You expect the parents who took dedicated time off to send their kids to mock tests, for which they have been tutored and prepared for months and years, to be pushing, shoving, and seeking attention? And you assume the parents who don't put their kids for 11 plus exam will do exactly that?

I’m sorry, but I’m offended by such assumptions.

Hard working patient and honest families, but no, they must be causing social harm.

Of course they can be friends in comprehensive school setting too....

@CurlewKate Theres plenty of dc in secondary modern schools who do very well indeed. They might go a bit slower but in Bucks secondaries go to university. Some will not be much different to the destinations of some of the grammar dc. This reflects that they mature at different rates. There’s also 30.% higher achievers in some secondaries so you would expect good results.

I do think there is a difference in SLTs though. It seems there are more challenges in the secondary schools and SLT competence is more hit and miss. The grammars are always well run. There’s a hierarchy of secondaries though, and some are way better than many comps. Unless parents have completely taken against a secondary, most dc we know in them have thrived. Many going to RG unis and similar. They don’t feel discarded. They just get there in the end via a slightly different route. However supportive parents makes a huge difference.

@TizerorFizz "Theres plenty of dc in secondary modern schools who do very well indeed."

Not denying it.

@Overturnedmum

There js plenty of chance for students to move the set a certain subject during the school time.

You have convinced me - you're right that they can move to different ability groups. Also to be honest it's likely they might be in higher set for example for science but lower for English.

I still think we need much better provision for students who are more practical & hats sitting in a classroom all day. However maybe it is best to have different pathways under one roof.

But that is one of the problems - the actual educational content is hugely different in different state schools.

We went down the aptitude test route to ensure DD could attend a school with a top notch music department.

The local options could barely get enough kids doing music to run the GCSE.

Just out of interest, what is your view on places like the BRIT School (state and highly selective for PA), or places like Chets, Purcell, White Lodge?

There is no justification for a music or specialized subject school to be affiliated with a 11+ exam dictated grammar school.

The BRIT school select at 14+/16+? The selection focus is on talent and potential based on the subject that you couldn't possibly influenced much by tutoring at that age?

The other schools you mentioned are actually private schools with some funding provided by the state or charitable entities, which is not much different from the scholarship or bursary programs offered by private schools. To be fair, I would argue that the means-tested bursary scheme is more equitable to the broader practice.