Scrap school catchments now

[Momentumummy]

If Labour wants to eventually end parents buying privilege through private schools, it needs to go after school catchments. How can it be fair to decide schools by distance to gates when it often depends on ability to pay rent or mortgage which will usually be higher in catchment for good schools?

The only fair system is a lottery one by borough (at least for secondary when kids are old enough to travel alone). You should be allocated a place within your borough but it should be randomized and not based on distance to gates.

By doing this it actually prevents children in poverty accessing education as they need to be close to physically get t school in the cheapest way

Also emissions of extra travel and the loss of community and accessing after school clubs and breakfast clubs which are meant to help these children

It is quite common, unfortunately. As an English teacher it drives me nuts. Often, setting starts for Humanities in year 10

Grammar-level ability isn't an SEN.

I have long supported the idea of high ability special schools - for those of such high ability that they cannot be educated efficiently within mainstream comprehensive schools. Co-located with a comprehensive school so the pupils can attend mainstream school classes for all subjects where their ability is not extreme (eg, depending on the child, PE, PSHCE, DT Food) and for sports and canteen facilities.

Admission through EHCP in the normal SEN way, supported through a full battery of Ed Psych tests and any other relevant assessments.

It may be that one is needed per county, or there may need to be only a few country-wide, similar to the model for specialist music or dance schools for those of an ability so high their needs cannot be efficiently or effectively met through local provision.

Definitely not the same as grammar schools - the vast majority of pupils in eg Bucks or Kent grammars could very efficiently have their educational needs met within a comprehensive system. As a teacher of over a decade, I would say that I have met very few children (3 or 4, within a high achieving junior school; I have taught perhaps 10x that number who have gone on to 8/9s at GCSE and A* at A level) who need something genuinely educationally ‘different’ due to their extreme ability.

Like Keir “My kids went to State school and did great” in an area where flats are £600k and houses are £850k+
Not really the typical UK demographic is it!

It's worth emphasising the Government's line that "it's up to schools whether they pass on the VAT burden" is completely misleading. VAT is by definition a consumer tax (not a business tax) and will have to be added to fees bills at 20%. The only way schools can 'absorb' any portion of that is by LOWERING fees so that the total incl VAT goes up by less than 20%.
While many larger schools will have the reserves to do this, and the expertise to claim back as much VAT as they can on their eligible purchases, smaller school might not. For many, their staff costs are their greatest expense.

The also touted argument that “it will be fine if 5% leave” doesn’t ring true if that 5% makes a school no longer able to cover its costs. Then the whole school closes leaving many needing places.

State school classes are likely to rise to accommodate more pupils which doesn’t benefit any child. Locally a private primary school with 55 pupils is on the brink. The Council has 3 places available.

What do you mean by high / extreme ability and how do you identify them by Ed Psych tests ?

Academic ability come with many dimensions, and a lot of research shows that you can't just identify them via test.

Hence the need for a full EHCP process and associated assessments - the SEN process is pretty thorough, would usually require lots of school data over time; several rounds of additional internal provision and review; involvement and reports from external experts and addition rounds of plan, do, review from their recommendations. Then an application in the same way as to other special schools - an EHCP stating that no mainstream can meet need.

Regarding Starmer living in an expensive area, many people do. I don't understand this as an attack line - do you want him to move somewhere else just to make you feel better?

And irrespective of the average house prices, many London boroughs have large numbers of residents living in poverty alongside wealthier residents, with RBKC being a well-known example.

Like Keir “My kids went to State school and did great” in an area where flats are £600k and houses are £850k+
Not really the typical UK demographic is it

I looked up the data for the relevant school after multiple claims of this type - its %SEN and %PP are, if I remember correctly, in line with national averages and its %EAL around 2x the national average. Very different data from eg many
‘leafy village primaries’ that MN patents may choose. If you remind me of the name I can find the data again.

It's pretty straightforward. As a matter of law, child or young person has special educational needs if they have a learning difficulty or disability which calls for special educational provision to be made for them. They have a learning difficulty or disability if they have a significantly greater difficulty in learning than the majority of others of the same age, or a disability which prevents or hinders them from making use of facilities of a kind generally provided for others of the same age in mainstream schools. Clearly being academically gifted doesn't put you into the learning difficulty or disability category.

If you disagree with that, you'll need to lobby your MP in a big way to try to have the law changed.

The most gifted grammar kids are definitely SEN.

@ThisOldThang by that logic so are the brightest pupils in comprehensive schools.

How many of the residents living in poverty live within the 0.114 mile catchment area though!

It’s not an attack, it’s an example of house prices driving demand for outstanding school places replicated up and down the UK.

There are other demographic indicators such as 1% absence rate. 18% eligible for free school meals compared to 41% at the next nearest 10 schools that show it is not a run of the mill school for the area.

DS at a London all boys superselective grammar had boys in top set maths in year 7 who were already at 8/9 GCSE level and comfortably at A level A star by 14/15. Top set could teach ahead, the standard maths gcse was an after thought, they did the additional maths one of course plus tons of maths competitions. All of them got A stars in Maths and Further Maths at A level. Year 11 when they had to do the additional maths mocks was dull dull dull for most of them. It is not recommended to take the A levels early but they do let the real geniuses do it.

@cantkeepawayforever quite. The idea that comprehensives in affluent areas are only full of affluent children is daft. Or that comps in poor areas don't have super bright kids.

My own DC went to a comp in a poor area. They, and many of their friends by @ThisOldThang 's reckoning would be SEN. But I doubt very much they'd accept that; they just feel they had the luck of the brains and parent draw and did exceptionally well. DS went to Cambridge, DD to Durham (and now teaches at a university). Amoung their friends another went to Oxford and is now teaching at Princeton. They'd howl with laughter at the suggestion they were SEN. Thankfully despite their abilities their feet are firmly on the ground.

No grammar in our area obviously. Somehow though the bright kids did ok. Miraculous 😂

I was looking at Eleanor Palmer in Camden.

1% absence rate. Only 18% eligible for free school meals compared to 41% on average at the next nearest 10 schools that are all within 1.5 miles.

Yes. I'm happy to accept that.

Shouldn't those children have specialist educational provision?

Far many more a level A* maths and further maths students from comprehensive schools compared to grammar schools. Not sure they are dull but a lot of them did achieve ok and realised their potential.

First need to establish these extreme neurodivergent high ability kids are absolutely not the same as superselective grammar schools that majority 'ability' are primarily driven by pushy families.

@Ivytheterrible - so Keir Starmers kids are at a school that roughly reflect the national average- 18% is not far off the national average of 20%.

he’s sent his kids to the local school to his house, his house that sits in the constituency he represents. That doesn’t look like a wealthy MP buying privilege for his dcs. more MPs should educate their dcs locally.

Do you have any evidence that proves grammar schools are full of children that have been hot housed with private tutors?

People keep throwing around that claim and it just seems like a cope.

https://analytics.ofqual.gov.uk/

It is very clear what type of centre produces the highest proportion of As at A level, independent then grammar then free school.

The data is clear and clearly some people have a bee in their bonnet about it because it doesn’t accord with their ideology. Tough.

Someone not really good at maths to point out this data to proof that Grammar school kids has Special need.. . If one get selected a few times by exam, of course, it will of course have a higher proportion...... Isn't this common sense?

Yes I have. Just look at any 11+ tutoring centre around you and see how many successful entties each centre claim.

Let me ask you , do you have any evidence to proof majority students who did 11 plus exam DO not do any form of tutoring (private or by their parents help) to get in?