Scrap school catchments now

[Momentumummy]

If Labour wants to eventually end parents buying privilege through private schools, it needs to go after school catchments. How can it be fair to decide schools by distance to gates when it often depends on ability to pay rent or mortgage which will usually be higher in catchment for good schools?

The only fair system is a lottery one by borough (at least for secondary when kids are old enough to travel alone). You should be allocated a place within your borough but it should be randomized and not based on distance to gates.

@converseandjeans what extraordinary ignorance your post shows!

Firstly, there is no such category in the law, please see above.
Secondly, it's utter nonsense - grammars are the only chance for bright children from poor families to escape the dumbing down in comp. My DC went from comp to grammar and I can assure we experienced more "discrimination" at comp, starting from discrimination against disabled people.

What a daft idea.

I expect they get sent to schools where they're lambs to the slaughter due to the 'thick is cool' culture that permeates comprehensive schools. Where children that want to learn have their education ruined by constant disruption and bullying.

You're deluded if you think those kids are going to get the same outcomes if they're forced to attend non-selective schools.

I suspect you know this, but you're happy for those kids to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator so long as your socialist bullshit 'principles' are satiated.

The same could be said for the extremely bright children who don't pass the 11+ as their parents either can not afford tutoring or don't know how to arrange it

At least in a fully comprehensive area there are plenty of other smart children.

DD is top set at a Comp...they aren't bullied!

@Ubertomusic "Secondly, it's utter nonsense - grammars are the only chance for bright children from poor families to escape the dumbing down in comp"

Bright children from poor families don't get into grammar schools.

There are only 168 grammar schools-do you genuinely think those are the only state schools where kids get good results?

Research by the Sutton Trust shows that kids of similar ability score only marginally better in grammar schools than they do in comprehensives.

It is more the grammar obsessed parents are the one with special needs usually.

I guess it depends on the size of the school. My comprehensive wasn't huge and the top set contained disruptive kids that shouldn't have been in the class, but i guess they couldn't have had 35 kids in the bottom set but only 25 kids in the top set.

There was definitely a culture of 'thick is cool' and wanting to learn was uncool / drag them down / make their lives hell.

The teachers were generally excellent and most kids were nice, but it was the persistent disruption in every single class, every single day that ruined things.

There was also a culture of low expectations with a teacher laughing at me when I said I was planning to go to university.

When I changed schools for A-levels and attended the grammar school, it was like night and day.

The only argument against grammar schools is the politics of envy.

If people were actually serious about fighting inequality, we'd have grammar schools everywhere so that poorer kids could access decent education.

"Bright children from poor families don't get into grammar schools."

There were definitely children from poorer backgrounds at my grammar school. Plenty of kids got free school meals.

@ThisOldThang "There were definitely children from poorer backgrounds at my grammar school. Plenty of kids got free school meals."

Any stats?

@CurlewKate

Yes. Of course I was gathering stats 30 years ago in anticipation of the need to provide them to you today.

🙄

If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd know that somebody has already posted the current pupil premium / free school meal stats for grammar schools.

There are less children from poorer backgrounds at grammar school, but i think that's entirely to be expected. Intelligent people tend to earn more and intelligent parents are more likely to have intelligent kids.

I'm sure there are problems around the margins - e.g. borderline kids from richer families getting places due to tuition and bright poorer kids falling to get places because their primary school is crap or their parents don't care about education, but those poorer kids aren't going to be helped by abolishing grammar schools.

A poor kid at a grammar school can change their entire life. We need to help more clever children from poorer backgrounds access that standard of education and culture of high expectations. They certainly won't get that at the average comp.

Selection is not "discrimination", please refer to the relevant laws. You can invent whatever you want, but this won't change the reality.

Yes, children should have access to education and the solution would be opening grammar schools everywhere, not closing them everywhere as in your "universe". Of course the gov is not going to open more grammars, they don't need clever people so there is nothing to discuss here.

Too many people, like yourself, think that dragging everyone down is good, and that's a massive problem. Britain has been behind for ages on so many STEM things, from space missions to shipbuilding to whatnot. The chaos with education (not current VAT but general inability of successive governments to improve anything) will only exacerbate this problem. You cannot have rocket science (any "rocket science") if your population is so uneducated that people can't do basic maths. "Socialists" can shout equality slogans from the rooftops 24x7 till their throats are coarse - this won't make children literate and numerate and STEM advanced to the highest standard that is required now.

Banning grammars or any selection won't make the comps better - it's not about mixing everyone together, it's about the cultural values and motivation. If people are shouting "we don't need no education" - they can be MC, WC or posh, the results will be miserable. If people are fantasising "oh let's try one crazy policy, if it doesn't work - we'll do the next crazy one" - the results will be disastrous. Birbalsingh is not "experimenting on children" like the government after government have been doing, and she's not mixing "rich" with "poor" as the "rich" stay away, but her school gets excellent results with a very poor and disadvantaged intake - just because her teaching approach, methods, demands, motivation and enforcement make children learn. And I repeat - LEARN, not faff about constantly measuring if everyone is "perfectly equally equal", and whether one is doing better than the other, and planning how to drag your classmate down. She's creating the race to the top and no wonder she is being hated by the lefties.

So yes, rest assured, the population will remain largely illiterate and the elites will have no problem to rule the people.

There are lots of ASD pupils in grammars. People can be both gifted and disabled. I can't believe this is not common knowledge.

I agree with you that selection by house price isn't fair. I also know that my life would have been impossible (as a non-driving single mum of two) if my children had not gone to the local school. Not just for the school day but for mixing with their friends after, providing mutual support with other parents, combining full time work with the zillions of school meetings that have been necessary for my youngest etc.

We have to find solutions that aren't as damaging as the original problem.

I should add that all the schools in my area are pretty good, but mine is considered the least good yet I still chose it for my kids. Because a local school was pretty much top of my priorities.

And no, you're not the only socialist left on Mumsnet. But this one believes in sustaining strong local communities, and community schools are a vital part of that.

My DC went to grammar when we were poor, but thanks for telling me this doesn't happen.

🙄

@CurlewKate

what extraordinary ignorance your post shows!

I went to grammar school & don't recall any SEN children. I guess in those days young people weren't diagnosed with things like autism.

In most comprehensive schools students are generally in sets for English Maths Science. The majority of SEN students would not be in top sets.

I think it depends on the school but I think that bright students can generally do well in most comps.

I don't know grammar school is for everyone. The lessons were fairly dull in many subjects. Lots of copying down notes & listening. No chance to ask questions if you didn't understand.

We had lots of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. From small terraced houses in the less affluent part of town. No idea of the stats. I don't think FSM were a thing back then.

I earn a moderate salary as a teacher & know plenty of people who hated school & scraped through but they earn double what I do. So I don't know that a grammar school education is necessarily better?

I don't care about the results, the scores, GCSE etc. I care about standards and knowledge. Children from Ukraine are better educated than the British!

@ThisOldThang

The only argument against grammar schools is the politics of envy

Yes people who want them abolished would likely send their own child there if they passed the exam 🤷🏻‍♀️.

If people were actually serious about fighting inequality, we'd have grammar schools everywhere so that poorer kids could access decent education.

Yes I agree with this too. But I can't see it happening. Mind you Keir Starmer went to grammar school & came from a modest background & he has likely achieved more as a result of his grammar school education.

Mind you Keir Starmer went to grammar school & came from a modest background & he has likely achieved more as a result of his grammar school education.

Nonsense, he is the only one who get half of the grammar education in his own cabinet. His school converted to a private school while he was there.

This.

@Ubertomusic

There are lots of ASD pupils in grammars. People can be both gifted and disabled. I can't believe this is not common knowledge.

I probably wasn't counting ASD students as SEN.

So not sure what the point is - one poster saying not enough SEN in grammar schools & it's unfair. Yet now there are apparently lots of ASD students who are classed as SEN. So presumably they do get accepted into grammar schools?

Indeed, why would you.

Gosh, you are a teacher! Why or why we have all this in schools...

I don't wan't to believe you are a teacher.

If people were actually serious about fighting inequality, we'd have grammar schools everywhere so that poorer kids could access decent education.

This is call comprehensive schools in the 21st century.