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Can anyone explain acids and bases to me like I'm an idiot?

71 replies

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 14:21

Hi all, posting in Education in the hope of finding some chemistry teachers/experts.

For reasons too dull/potentially outing to go into here I need to understand, and be able to explain, acids and bases, and I have tried using books and google to no avail. I'm scientifically minded and understand most things but I cannot get it. If anyone can answer my questions I would be eternally grateful!

What is confusing me is it seems to have something to do with water. So an acid for example is in water and can be more or less strong, and/or more or less dilute.

So what is an acid, is it a chemical compound (like a salt) or it is some kind of mixture with water (like a salt solution)? If I buy citric acid powder in solid form, is that an acid - and/or how is it different if I add water?

If anyone can simply explain the hydrogen ion aspect too, and why acids and bases are "opposites", but are also somehow on a spectrum, please do!

TIA. It's driving me mad.

OP posts:
MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 15:19

*Water is needed for the other compound to dissociate into its ions and "become" an acid.

For example, pure HCl is a gas, hydrogen chloride, that isn't an acid.

When dissolved in water it splits into the H+ and Cl- and is acidic.*

Thanks - this clears one confusion up. But then why do we call something like citric acid citric acid? Is it just shorthand for "becomes citric acid in water, like when you ingest it"?

OP posts:
MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 15:24

And I've also seen that an akali is a base that can dissolve in water. So that suggests some bases aren't. So why are they bases? Do they dissolve in something else, or is it just that they have the right chemical formula to be a base but it doesn't happen?

OP posts:
johann12 · 10/08/2024 15:26

I actually wasn't clearly taught this, but I believe the acid would carry a positive charge (lacking electrons) before it touched the water, and on reaction with it would draw electrons from the water ... ?

prepareforharvest · 10/08/2024 15:30

So I'm not entirely sure but I think that you can have acids and bases that don't dissolve in water but they will still react with a base/acid that is in water. So I don't think you could react a solid acid with a solid base but you could react a solution of one with a solid of the other because there'd be water present in the reaction still

That is very much a guess based on my (fairly decent but crumbling in confidence) chemical knowledge!

Can you share any more details on why you want to know/what you need to do with the info OP? That might help the pitch of the answers!

FrogTaker · 10/08/2024 15:30

I am a senior lectuerer in chemistry at a University.

You need to start by considering water, there is a reversable reaction where water splits into H+ and OH-, the H+ concentration in a solution in water defines for most purposes how acidic or alkaline the water solution is.

When something is inside square brackets it means that it is the concentration of a thing in moles per litre.

At 25 oC, the constant (kw) for the splitting up of pure water is 1 x 10^-14, we can write for pure water

[H+][OH-] = kw

As [H+] = [OH-]

[H+] = sqrt (Kw) for pure water

(sqrt = square root)

As you heat up the water Kw becomes larger, so the assumption that neutral means pH 7 only applies at 25 oC for pure water.

pH was defined by some German man as "-log10 [H+]"

There are three defintions for acids, the first two are named after dead Swedish people. For a water based system the Arrhenius defintion of an acid is "a substance which increases the H+ concentration in the water". As the [H+] concentration in a citric acid solution is higher than that of pure water then citric acid meets the Arrhenious definition.

The more useful definition is the Bronsted definition, which defines an acid as a thing which can donate a "proton". The citric acid has three acid groups in the moelcule. We can take a more simple acid such as acetic acid which is in vinigar. This is CH3COOH.

The acetic acid will dissociate when mixed with water to form CH3COO- and H+ ions (charged atoms or charged molecules)

We can write

Ka = [H+][CH3COO-]/[CH3COOH]

For a mixture of water and a moderately strong Bronsted acid such as citric acid we can write

[H+] = sqrt (Ka [CH3COOH])

So by adding acetic acid to the water the concentration of the solvated protons [H+] will go up and pH will go down.

The strength of an acid relates to Ka, the greater the ability of an acid (HA) to dissociate into H+ and A- the higher the strength of the acid. For example hydrogen cyanide (hydrocyanic acid) has a pKa of 9.2 ( -log10 of Ka) which means it is a very weak acid. The pKa of acetic acid is about 4.5 meaning that acetic acid is 50120 times stronger an acid in Ka terms than hydrogen cyanide.

Boric acid is also very weak, it is about as weak as hydrogen cyanide as an acid.

The addition of a base to water has the opposite effect to the addition of an acid. For example the addition of ammonia to water will form a solution which has a lower proton concentration [H+] than water.

For ammonia the pKb is about 4.8.

This means that kb of ammonia is 0.000016

We can write an equation for a base, we write B for a generic base

Kb = [BH+][OH-]/[B]

As [OH-][H+] = Kw

Then as we can write

[OH-] = sqrt (kb [B]) for a mixture of water and the base

We can then write

[H+] = Kw / sqrt (kb [B])

These equations are approximations for moderate concentrations of the acids or bases, they also do not apply for solutions of extremely weak acids like boric acid or hydrogen cyanide in water.

There is a general idea which always applies

Strong acid + Strong base forms weak acid and weak base.

For example

Acetic acid (stronger acid) + ammonia (stronger base) forms ammonium cations (NH4+) which are a weaker acid than acetic acid in terms of Ka, and acetate anions (CH3COO-) which in Kb terms are a weaker base than the ammonia.

I could write a whole 10 hour lecture course on this subject, I am just giving you the basics.

There is a third defintion based on the views of a dead american man called Lewis, this is about electron pairs and I do not think you need to know about this one.

Sadly YourTheTop is not right, an acid does not have to form a solution where the pH is less then 7. For example boric acid and hydrogen cyanide are both acids but their solutions in water are not lower than 7 as they are very weak Bronsted acids.

prepareforharvest has a better understanding of the core concepts

Acinonyx2 · 10/08/2024 15:34

Water is covalently bonded and the disassociation to ions in pure water is tiny and not relevant here. Water is a liquid because the molecules are very polarised - the O tends to be more negative, H more positive. The result is that they sort of stick together - this is hydrogen bonding. Without it, water would be a gas (as it should be just by molecular weight).

Substances like salts, acids and bases can become dissociated in water. If and acid or base (alkali) is not in water (or similar solvent) it cannot have acidic/basic properties because it cannot dissociate.

Yes, an alkali is a water soluble base - some bases are not soluble. They can still neutralise an acid (which can only be acidic if it is in water) by contact with the surface. So eg magnesium oxide MgO is not very soluble but if dropped into a beaker of say HCl neutralisation will happen at the contact pint between the two. If that carries on - possibly all the MgO will react.

Hope that helps a bit.

NotDavidTennant · 10/08/2024 15:37

Acid is just a category of compounds that play the same role in certain chemical reactions. Base is just another category of compounds that play the same role in certain chemical reactions.

The role that acids and bases play in these reactions is mutually exclusive, so a compound can be an acid or a base (or neither) but not both.

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 15:44

Can you share any more details on why you want to know/what you need to do with the info OP? That might help the pitch of the answers!

Not to out myself too much, I work in a job that involves simplifying complex information for a general/lay audience. This is normally fine and I'm good at it, including many scientific concepts - but I've never had to get to the bottom of acids and bases before and now I do! I could just repeat information from sources, but if I don't understand it myself I can't do a good job. And all the kinds of sources I normally use aren't helping me grasp it.

OP posts:
FrogTaker · 10/08/2024 15:49

Acinonyx2 · 10/08/2024 15:34

Water is covalently bonded and the disassociation to ions in pure water is tiny and not relevant here. Water is a liquid because the molecules are very polarised - the O tends to be more negative, H more positive. The result is that they sort of stick together - this is hydrogen bonding. Without it, water would be a gas (as it should be just by molecular weight).

Substances like salts, acids and bases can become dissociated in water. If and acid or base (alkali) is not in water (or similar solvent) it cannot have acidic/basic properties because it cannot dissociate.

Yes, an alkali is a water soluble base - some bases are not soluble. They can still neutralise an acid (which can only be acidic if it is in water) by contact with the surface. So eg magnesium oxide MgO is not very soluble but if dropped into a beaker of say HCl neutralisation will happen at the contact pint between the two. If that carries on - possibly all the MgO will react.

Hope that helps a bit.

True things like Mg(OH)2 have very low solubilities in water. but they can react with the water.

A poorly soluble hydroxide such as Mg(OH)2 has a thing called a solubility product which for magnesium hydroxide is defined as

Ksp = [Mg2+][OH-][OH-]

So for a slurry of magnesium hydroxide in contact with water we can write

sqrt(Ksp / [Mg2+]) = [OH-]

We can rearrange the equation in a different way

Ksp = [Mg2+] (Kw/[H+])(Kw/[H+])

so

Kw / (sqrt (Ksp / [Mg2+])) = [H+]

Alternatively

[Mg2+] = Ksp / ((Kw/[H+])(Kw/[H+]))

So the more acid we have in the system the higher the magnesium concentration goes, this makes the magnesium hydroxide dissolve more in acid than in normal water.

You have to be careful in some acid solutions such as citric acid as the magnesium cations react with the citrate anions to form a new substance. The maths for this would be an algebra festival.

FrogTaker · 10/08/2024 15:50

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 15:44

Can you share any more details on why you want to know/what you need to do with the info OP? That might help the pitch of the answers!

Not to out myself too much, I work in a job that involves simplifying complex information for a general/lay audience. This is normally fine and I'm good at it, including many scientific concepts - but I've never had to get to the bottom of acids and bases before and now I do! I could just repeat information from sources, but if I don't understand it myself I can't do a good job. And all the kinds of sources I normally use aren't helping me grasp it.

Have we answered your problem or do you need more help ?

prepareforharvest · 10/08/2024 15:52

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 15:44

Can you share any more details on why you want to know/what you need to do with the info OP? That might help the pitch of the answers!

Not to out myself too much, I work in a job that involves simplifying complex information for a general/lay audience. This is normally fine and I'm good at it, including many scientific concepts - but I've never had to get to the bottom of acids and bases before and now I do! I could just repeat information from sources, but if I don't understand it myself I can't do a good job. And all the kinds of sources I normally use aren't helping me grasp it.

I see, that does make it more tricky! I was going to suggest to try to breeze over the details because chemistry can get very complicated very fast and when it's taught the ideas tend to build from "not technically correct but understandable and answers most questions" to "technically completely accurate but practically useless and no one knows what's going on anymore." I appreciate you want to feel confident to do a good job though

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 16:18

FrogTaker

Thank you, that is really helpful, though I don't fully understand all the equations I think I am getting the basics.

For an acidic solution, if it has more H+ than a neutral solution, has all that H+ come from the acid dissociating, or has some come from the water?

For an alkali you say it has less H+ than water. Is that because water has a small amount and an alkali adds none, or is there something additional going on? Is the definition of an alkali that it has less H+, or is it that it has more OH-?

Thanks to everyone for persisting!

OP posts:
MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 16:24

Also, why do acids and bases dissociate in water? I know sodium chloride does too - is that related? Does all dissolving involve dissocation?

OP posts:
MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 16:27

chemistry can get very complicated very fast and when it's taught the ideas tend to build from "not technically correct but understandable and answers most questions" to "technically completely accurate but practically useless and no one knows what's going on anymore."

That's so true and well-put! It's a subject where the more a try to get to the bottom of it, the deeper it gets. I have started to wonder how any one person can understand it all.

OP posts:
johann12 · 10/08/2024 16:46

It's not that an acid would have more H+ it's that there would be H+ at all. A non acidic compound containing hydrogen would just contain H. The + means there is an uneven amount of electrons to protons, meaning a deficiency in negative charge. Giving the compound an overall positive + charge.

I believe added to water, the H+ in the acid would gain electrons effectively transforming it into neutral just H hydrogen (part of the new H2O created)

An alkali would contain OH- or compound containing OH with an excess of electrons creating an overall negative charge. In water there would be no excess so the electrons and protons would balance each other to be neutral.

Acids and bases dissociating in water is a bit complicated for me, I'll let someone else answer that properly, or if I can remember later I'll post to give a fuller explanation. I've tried to take HND level chemistry twice and not passed, it can get very complicated, please anyone correct me if I've muddled anything

johann12 · 10/08/2024 16:57

Have you thought about hiring a tutor to help you write this ?

Positivenancy · 10/08/2024 17:00

I thought only aqueous solutions have a ph?

have you looked at khan academy @MrsWhattery they are quite good.

johann12 · 10/08/2024 17:01

To be honest, ignore what I've said about what happens when the H+ touches water, there's several steps there beyond my scope atm. It's pretty complicated. But yes there is an electron deficit in the chemical on it's own

LibertyPrime · 10/08/2024 17:03

Acids
An acid is a substance that can donate a proton (H⁺ ion) to another substance. Acids have several distinctive properties:

  • Taste: Acids generally have a sour taste (e.g., lemon juice, vinegar).
  • pH: Acids have a pH less than 7. The lower the pH, the stronger the acid.
  • Reactivity: Acids react with metals to produce hydrogen gas, and with bases to produce salts and water.
  • Conductivity: Acids conduct electricity when dissolved in water due to the presence of free ions.
  • Examples: Common acids include hydrochloric acid (HCl), sulfuric acid (H₂SO₄), and acetic acid (CH₃COOH).
LibertyPrime · 10/08/2024 17:04

Bases
A base is a substance that can accept a proton or donate a pair of electrons to form a bond. Bases also have distinct properties:

  • Taste: Bases tend to have a bitter taste (e.g., baking soda).
  • pH: Bases have a pH greater than 7. The higher the pH, the stronger the base.
  • Texture: Bases often feel slippery or soapy to the touch.
  • Reactivity: Bases react with acids to form salts and water, and with oils or fats in saponification reactions.
  • Conductivity: Like acids, bases conduct electricity in solution due to the presence of ions.
  • Examples: Common bases include sodium hydroxide (NaOH), ammonia (NH₃), and calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)₂).
LibertyPrime · 10/08/2024 17:06

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 16:24

Also, why do acids and bases dissociate in water? I know sodium chloride does too - is that related? Does all dissolving involve dissocation?

When substances dissolve in water, they may dissociate into ions or molecules. The extent and nature of dissociation depend on the chemical properties of the substance.

johann12 · 10/08/2024 17:07

Positivenancy · 10/08/2024 17:00

I thought only aqueous solutions have a ph?

have you looked at khan academy @MrsWhattery they are quite good.

They wouldn't be written like that though surely ? with - + before added to anything ?

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 17:19

Have you thought about hiring a tutor to help you write this?

Yes! Or somehow approaching a chemistry professor and asking if they'll let me quiz them in exchange for a drink. I thought I'd try MN first as it's similar - there are experts in everything on here and you can discuss back and forth.

OP posts:
MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 17:24

And I'm very grateful to you all for taking the time to reply. I wasn't sure if my thread would sink without trace.

OP posts:
LibertyPrime · 10/08/2024 17:28

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 17:24

And I'm very grateful to you all for taking the time to reply. I wasn't sure if my thread would sink without trace.

its a mix, if you have any more questions ill do my best to assist

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