Labour to reduce number of Grammar/Selective school places?

[Another76543]

This thread is not about private schools. It’s about the Labour Party’s dislike of state grammar/selective schools. Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, has, in recent years, stated that she wants fewer children in selective schools, and more in comprehensive education. Angela Rayner has also expressed her dislike of the grammar system.

Does this mean that, under Labour, the number of selective places will be reduced? Will parents have less choice over the type of education their children receive?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=OW21Tu38Txo

Musical talent and high IQ are not the same thing, and one does not necessarily guarantee the other. Music programs in state schools should be open to a broad base to maximize the benefit.

You're on glue if you think that good behaviour isn't correlated to aptitude. The child behaving and knuckling down to the work is essential to their success.

You might not need a high IQ to participate in a learn-by-ear choir, but it takes talent and aptitude to sight-read the music you are singing and correctly pronounce the Latin lyrics, or to sight-transpose a french horn part in F to play it on an E flat tenor horn.

We did a four-part Latin major choral work in conjunction with the choir of the nearby boys' grammar every year. My favourite was Mozart's Requiem. My sister's school did unison or two-part pop tunes.

I'm autistic and there's an autism cluster in my family. We are all brass musicians by hobby and some kind of STEM by trade. I didn't know they were correlated and it explains a lot.

Music programs in state schools should be open to a broad base to maximize the benefit.

For once, we agree. The benefits of music on mental health are profound and everyone should be able to participate in open-access ensembles with a low difficulty level. It's legitimate and necessary to have audition-only ensembles alongside open-access ones to challenge the kids who are capable of sight-singing in Latin.

Still in your old days.

Perform Mortzarts requiem required some knowledge on understanding the music structure, these skills can developed by practice and training,maybe some cognitive ability is required but not high IQ level.

More importantly, maintaining pitch and interpret the emotional content of the music required creativity and imagination, this is not something with good behaving can deliver.

In order to take music GCSE and achieve a good grade you need a musical instrument and music theory at Grade 5 level. You also need keyboard skills in order to complete the composition elements.

There is a very strong link with musical ability and mathematical ability.

I did not say musical talent and high IQ were the same thing. I said they were strongly correlated.

Yes , mathematical ability and possibly some Italian knowledge can help with passing the Grade 5 theory test, but this has nothing to do with the 11+ exam.

Many children complete the Grade 5 theory exam before age of 10, and numerous students in comprehensive schools achieve excellent grades in both mathematics and music GCSEs. What is the relevant point you trying to make on this for grammar school and 11 plus test?

That all grammar schools offer music GCSE.

A lot of comprehensive schools do not.

Hence choice is important.

Also the title of the thread is grammar/selective so selection on things like music is directly relevant.

Not true. Many grammar schools do not provide music GCSE, while numerous comprehensive schools do offer it. Eliminating grammar schools does not eliminate the option for parents to choose comprehensive schools with music programs.

some knowledge on understanding the music structure

That's an enormous understatement of the skills required to read the notes and Latin lyrics and confidently sing in four-part counterpoint for a piece of music in multiple movements that lasts over 50 minutes.

this is not something with good behaving can deliver.

I'm not sure what that sentence means. It's structured very oddly. Is English a second language for you, perchance?

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill

About sums it up really. I’m so glad my dcs have almost finished their (private) schooling before Labour can come in and shit all over anything they deem to be “unfair”. We’ve worked hard and come from nothing to send our kids to fantastic schools. Not to guarantee A’s but to let them enjoy their school days in happy, inspiring schools where all the children want to learn and the teachers and parents alike are supportive and encouraging. I don’t want my dcs going to school with kids who disrupt the class and take up all the teachers time or where they have to be frisked upon entering school or teachers are physically attacked. Anyone who thinks that’s unfair or elitist needs to get in the real world and out of their la-la land/1984 fantasy.

And the bright sparks who talk of a lottery and bussing kids to different affluent/poor areas - I’m sorry but I’m lmfao 🤣 - what planet are you on?!!

No, I’m bilingual and I think English is my first language. However, I don’t believe that only those who pass the 11-plus test can master Mortzarts requiem. In fact, most professional music performers didn’t take the 11-plus test nor come from grammar schools.

No, but it requires a music teacher who isn't having to be the riot police to direct that choir.

Are you still picturing your old grammar secondary modern days where comprehensive school music teachers are constantly busy policing disruptive kids in clubs, yet somehow the students can achieve great GCSE music results in reality?

IQ, good behaviour, and attainment are all strongly correlated. Filter out the swot-bashing low-achievers and the teachers don't have to waste time doing behaviour management and can lead the choir in difficult music that would otherwise be unachievable.

When I ran up that primary school corridor to the head's office, terrified that I'd missed my chance to enter the 11+, I wasn't thinking about GCSEs, I didn't even know what they were. I was thinking about escaping the bullies because at age ten I had spotted the correlation between being in the slow readers' group and being a bully.

Those disruptive kids aren't going to get good GCSEs. If they are lucky, they'll pass enough GCSEs to get a job. There's no need to inflict their presence on the smart kids who behave well and engage.

The catchment system means that well-off parents can buy their kids' way into good schools and most will do that. These kids, through upbringing and genetics (intergenerational cleverness means intergenerational wealth), tend to be smarter than poorer kids and their parents can afford tutors to "hothouse" good exam results even in less-able rich kids. The poorer kids end up at the sink school in special measures and do not get good results. Teachers in sink schools are not directing Mozart's Requiem.

As many people have explained, "comprehensive" usually means "selective based on parental income". Even with your banding tests, rich parents will buy houses in the catchment area of good schools and tutor their kids outside of school. Rich parents are more engaged and more likely to support school discipline, leading to the kind of school where the teacher doesn't have to be the riot police.

All scrapping the 11+ does is replace a meritocracy with a plutocracy.

I wish your DD the best possible luck with her musical endeavours. It's a competitive field to get into.

What is the Midas scheme? I googled but it’s coming up with minibus driver awareness training and I’m assuming you aren’t meaning that

@MaidOfAle I made up my mind not to engage with you any more for both our sakes- but that last post of yours is so incredibly offensive that I felt I ought to tell you that I've reported it.

Government’s Music & Dance Scheme (MDS)

I think the problem with the race to the bottom is that once you start making any allowances, the proponents won’t stop. We have already had the attack on private schools, now selective state, next it will be KS2 SATS and less setting in comps and the list will just go on and on. As has been highlighted - ballet/classical music - all elitism?!

All of the dogma will only do one thing - move all of the above into the home domain of the educational elite who will hire music tutors and increasingly will hire foreign tutors online and keep their kids at home. People will always segregate their children, for obvious reasons.
We haven’t taken prenatal vitamins, not drunk, eaten salmon and avocado in pregnancy, constantly talked to our babies and toddlers, read to them from an early age all for nothing. It has been years and years of really hard parenting work that has resulted in those Greater Depth KS2 SATS and strings and strings of 9s at GCSEs and 2 Grade 8 Distinctions/county netball/cricket/elite ballet, whatever you want to add. We have taught our children to work hard and aspire and to make the most of every day. To get up early, to read, be respectful to the teachers, help others in class, do your homework and spellings really well, join the school choir, try and get into higher sets, make good friends who are good for your mental health, avoid drink/smoking as teens and exercise instead. It does not matter whether our DCs go to private, grammar or top set comp - the profile is the same and it is largely down to our efforts in parenting. And yes it is enabled by wealth for extra curricular clubs, but I also have friends who are immigrants who are not wealthy who have managed to do the same by using the free church choir master and all sorts of schemes and I have made a big effort to guide them. Where there is a will there is usually a way.

@theworldie

Maybe you don’t realise that your supposed Churchill quote is just a mash up of two entirely separate speeches made several years apart?

Actually I forgot the most important thing I believe I did for my 4DC! The 6 years of my life that I breastfed. And no, it wasn’t fun, it was really hard work!!!! Especially whilst working at the same time and pumping for nursery and the look on some of their faces.

Therefore, instead of the chat around Dad the toolmaker I would really like some honesty from Starmer and Reeves et al on the educational values their parents clearly instilled in them from an early age to get them to Oxford (esp Reeves) and where they are now.

Perform Mortzarts requiem required some knowledge on understanding the music structure, these skills can developed by practice and training,maybe some cognitive ability is required but not high IQ level.
More importantly, maintaining pitch and interpret the emotional content of the music required creativity and imagination, this is not something with good behaving can deliver.

@SergeyB do you tell your students to read through their work before handing it in?

Disgusting, if a child doesn’t demonstrate a high IQ and good at study by age 10, or not come from a wealthy family, they should be labeled as disruptive child and not deserve of quality education from the state?!!!! . It’s appalling to think in a modern society only the rich should stay rich, and only a few who somehow demonstrated early stage "well-behaved" , show a bit of IQ but less privileged kids should have a chance to succeed.