Labour to reduce number of Grammar/Selective school places?

[Another76543]

This thread is not about private schools. It’s about the Labour Party’s dislike of state grammar/selective schools. Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, has, in recent years, stated that she wants fewer children in selective schools, and more in comprehensive education. Angela Rayner has also expressed her dislike of the grammar system.

Does this mean that, under Labour, the number of selective places will be reduced? Will parents have less choice over the type of education their children receive?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=OW21Tu38Txo

I believe the issue is multifaceted, similar to what we’ve talked about about grammar school here, and it’s clear to me that the goal isn’t merely to increase the birth rate. While considering the UK also has aging and shrinking population too.

Some draw comparisons between Asian cultures towards exam and the UK, it’s also important to consider the advancements in their educational systems.

SergeyB · Today 20:20
I’m not very familiar with the Indian education system, but my Chinese friend mentioned that the Chinese government has banned tutoring businesses and eliminated their equivalent of the 11+ exam a few years ago. This was done to promote better equality, better students wellbeing and improve overall educational outcomes.
I think UK need to learn from them

Would you also ban parents, elder siblings and aunt and uncles from tutoring children?

Banning the high school entrance exam altogether diminished the drive and incentive for large-scale exam based tutoring, family has better things to do to enrich social life.

@Barbadossunset "Yes well I suppose it must be a difficult decision for those who disagree with grammar schools but have a clever child."

You're using the selective system whether your child goes to grammar school or SM. Opt out is not an option.

Point three is legal fact. In England, a ten year old can be tried for murder. At nine, they can't. I think a murder conviction and spell in secure youth unit will have a lot more impact on a kid than going to secondary modern will.

Banning the high school entrance exam altogether diminished the drive and incentive for large-scale exam based tutoring, family has better things to do to enrich social life

Are all schools in China now the equivalent of comprehensive schools?

British universities are popular when the child grows up, too. We'd be idiots to cut off that revenue stream.

According my Chinese friend all state school under age 15 are compreheive schools. Children got allocated to local school randomly.

@MaidOfAle "I think a murder conviction and spell in secure youth unit will have a lot more impact on a kid than going to secondary modern will."

As I said, I don't feel comfortable engaging with you on this.

According my Chinese friend all state school under age 15 are compreheive schools. Children got allocated to local school randomly.

SergeyB that’s interesting so presumably this exam described below is for 15 year olds.

The Senior High School Entrance examination is referred to as Zhongkao. It is the academic examination held in the People' s Republic of China to admit junior high school graduates. The examination is a must for entrance into educational institutions at senior high school level. This includes secondary skill schools, vocational and technical high schools as well as common senior high schools………
Those students who fail at the Senior High School Entrance Examination cannot graduate from junior high school, even if there are senior high schools that agree to admit them. Failure to graduate from junior highs chool results in the “sending back the document” that indicates the student has not passed the Zhongkao

It sounds pretty competitive - I’d be surprised if there was no secret tutoring, unless of course Xi’s dictatorship makes the consequences of discovery really appalling.

How is this different from entering sixth form in the UK based on GCSE results? Do students skip sixth form to get into university?

I’m sure many students here, whether in comprehensive or grammar schools, prepare for GCSEs with the help of tutors or through school resources. We’re not talking about the 11+ exams!

It depends how you define the "advancement of their education system". In my opinion, I value the English way more.

The elements of creativity and independent thinking are not particularly liked by policy maker, as you probably can imagine. You do have lots students much better at sitting exams and getting high scores, but the fundamental critical thinking unfortunately isn't the strength of majority of the population.

The English way isn't perfect, but way better than the other way round.

Probably not entirely about increasing population. But you would need to look at the whole set of policies to have a coherent answer. On the other hand, the UK government wouldn't far reaching so much to ban an industry probably?

Lots of people would welcome easier access to alternative provision for children who can’t manage in school due to Sen etc, it really difficult to get as schools have to fund it and most won’t, that’s the reality

I’m sure many students here, whether in comprehensive or grammar schools, prepare for GCSEs with the help of tutors or through school resources. We’re not talking about the 11+ exams

Ah ok.
I guess Chinese children sent to public schools in UK must be prepared for Common Entrance at international schools in China. It’s surprising that’s allowed for Chinese citizens.

I don’t entirely disagree with what you said. But how do education policies like grammar schools or the 11-plus exam foster independent thinking and creativity? The social justice UK government is already enforcing VAT on private; perhaps they should go a step further with the tutoring industry too.

I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t believe Chinese children studying abroad need to take the Chinese entrance exam, just as UK citizens living and studying overseas don’t necessarily need to take A-levels or GCSEs.

From what I heard, there are still "good" schools and expensive catchment area property is a must. Selective entrance exam still exists, but in disguise. So here we go.

Your Chinese friend probably didn't want to go down into details. And that helps holding up the national pride too - "Look at us."

So let's focus on what's happening in this country and put away the thought that someone else solved it easily. The truth might be well out of sight.

SergeyB what I meant was some Chinese children are at school in China before coming to UK public schools aged 11 or 13.
If tutoring is banned there at primary levels for reasons of equality then I’m surprised Chinese children are allowed to study at international schools. I’d have thought they’d all have to go to the Chinese state schools.

I honestly don't know if they had sufficient funding and a big pot of free money to spend, would have they gone for the VAT path. So I think there's a difference between imposing VAT and banning an entire industry?

I didn't say the UK system is perfect. The fact is when resources are limited (decent teachers and decent cohort), there's always more demand than supply. Some means to define who can have the resource will have to come into the picture. By catchment area, by religion or by entrance exam. Fundamentally, there's no fairness to all. I wish there is a better way. But until state schools could all reach a decent level after decades of funding cut, people would always want the better path for their children.

Labour can start shifting the imbalance, but it would take years to have an effect on the depleted state school system. Before that, what are the options?

My Chinese friend mentioned that for students under 15 years old, the distribution of school levels and resources is more equitable. This has alleviated a lot of pressure for most parents at the primary school level. I don’t have many details to add beyond what I read from BBC.

Can we consider our closer neighbors in Western Europe or Scandinavia? They don’t have the 11+ exam or grammar schools either.

I believe the government shouldn’t use the existing inequalities as an excuse to avoid making improvements towards fairness, and it is more cost effective to have a farier state education system.

Not possible.

Half of DD's tutors aren't even in the UK. The internet has widened the world.

In my closest friendship group, we could probably cover most of the curriculum for each others kids. Everyone has at least one undergrad, and most have an MA or PhD.

Probably our neighbours are lucky to have a mindset and politicians who value education more than ours?

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Educational_expenditure_statistics&oldid=617657#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20public%20spending%20on,in%20Romania%20(3.1%20%25).&text=In%202020%2C%20the%20share%20of,)%20to%2016.0%20%25%20in%20Denmark.
In 2020, public spending on education relative to GDP was highest in Sweden (7.3 %) and Denmark (6.9 %), while it was lowest in Romania (3.1 %).

www.statista.com/statistics/302002/uk-education-spending-as-a-share-of-gdp/#:~:text=In%202022%2F23%2C%20the%20government,when%20it%20was%205.7%20percent.
In 2022/23, the government of the United Kingdom spent approximately 4.2 percent of its gross domestic product on education, compared with 4.3 percent in the previous financial year. During this time period, education spending as a share of GDP was highest in 2009/10 when it was 5.7 percent

I find your argument a bit absurd, to be honest. Just because chewing gum is banned in Singapore doesn’t mean Singaporeans can’t chew gum when they’re abroad

I interpret it as the wealthy ones still have other choices and banning tutors doesn't stop that.