Request a state school place if you want it or not

[clarkkentsglasses]

This email is doing the rounds aimed at private school parents:

"The idea is to try to flood the Council with requests for urgent school places from September. If they get tens of thousands of emails like this we may see them under pressure."

Basically request a state school place if you want it or not.

I've seen people on both sides of the debate pointing out things they think aren't clear to the other.

I've seen people pointing out that private school kids who transfer outside normal transition points will have no choice over state school offered, and are likely to be offered the least popular schools, perhaps a long distance away.

I've seen people pointing out that there is already huge inequality within the state system - with parents buying privileged state education through tutoring for grammar or buying houses in catchment for preferred school - and that parents choosing state over private at standard admission points would play that game alongside everyone else, displacing other students from preferred schools.

We seem to have inferred different levels of 'threat/malice/glee' vs 'explaining expected outcomes' from the comments of these 2 sets of parents. Opposite, in fact.

In defence of private school parents, the frustration comes from the fact that this policy is only being introduced because it's popular, and the reason it's popular is because people don't foresee the negatives to themselves. And that's why we seek to explain. Because if people realise the wider harm that will come then the policy will no longer be popular, and will not be introduced.

I'm not sure what the defence is for what I've seen anti-private-school parents say.

"I've seen people pointing out that private school kids who transfer outside normal transition points will have no choice over state school offered, and are likely to be offered the least popular schools, perhaps a long distance away"

I can see this happening, if, the PE family already lives in a high demand catchment area and is moving between transition points. Outside of that I don't think its likely. I certainly wouldn't rub my hands in glee over it.

"Because if people realise the wider harm that will come then the policy will no longer be popular, and will not be introduced."

The "wider harm" is yet to be seen and is debatable right now though. Also one of the joys of leaving the EU is that we can both introduce VAT on things that had previously not been allowed, and we can also take it off, which wasn't allowed under EU rules.

I also think that, whilst it is very sad and totally not ideal that some children will have to move schools, that this will actually be very small in number. The likelihood is that rolls will fall by between 3-5% across a number of years cumulatively at different admissions points.

@clarkkentsglasses you should read your local council's in-year admissions brochure. Ours makes it clear that it won't "automatically" make offers to children who are registered at independent schools. They know there is usually a 2-term notice period, so I expect they would ask you to provide evidence that you had given notice, and you'd need to be approaching the end of the notice period before they were obliged to offer a place. (And, as others have said, it is then likely to be a place at an undersubscribed school rather than the one you want).

They won’t ask for evidence of notice. You will be treated like anyone else needing a school place. There is no special, higher bar for kids currently in private school. Everyone is treated the same. You may well be offered an inconvenient school because that is all that is available, but that’s the same for anyone seeking a place.

@EmpressoftheMundane I've attached a quote from my council's in-year admissions brochure. How would you interpret the highlighted sentence? I would interpret it as: if they can't offer a preferred school they're not under any obligation to offer an alternative school for so long as the child is still registered at the private school.

If none of your preferred schools had space, couldn't you just make another application with different schools? Or just speak to them!

They're only saying that if your child isn't currently out of school, they won't automatically get you an offer at a totally different school if none of your preferred schools have space. Presumably they've found that for children who currently have a space at school (whether in state or private) then enough people decide to stick with it if they don't get their preferred school that it saves time for them to check with you first. Whereas if your child is out of school, parents are more likely to accept a different school so it saves time for them to do the application automatically.

I've just looked through our council's in-year application process out of interest. They say not to withdraw your child from their current school until you have secured a place for them at another school. Which seems sensible! Then when you get offered a place you're happy with, you can withdraw at that point and go straight to the new school. So if you're joining from private school you'd lose some fees, but that's a sunk cost.

They do have to follow the rules, and they're not out to punish anyone. They just want it all to run as smoothly as possible.

@strawberrybubblegum "If none of your preferred schools had space, couldn't you just make another application with different schools?"

I can't decide if you're being disingenuous or naive. 🙂

You can make as many applications to as many schools as you want. The ones with spaces will be very happy to make you an offer - there are many schools with spaces that need to be filled. But if none of the schools you want your child to go to have spaces, then, so long as your child has a place at another school, the council is not obliged to make you an offer. (Therefore, the OP's suggestion will not have the desired effect of putting pressure on councils or schools).

My LA treats applicants equally. It doesn’t matter what school you attend, you csn ask for a state place. It just talks about applying without moving into the LA. Eg you are already resident. There’s a list of dates for dc wanting places for Sept 24 and how and when they are considered. They also make it clear that large parts of the LA are receiving high numbers of applicants right now. I wonder why? Not, interestingly, from the richest area.

That sounds like the Y7 admissions brochure, rather than the in-year transfer brochure.

For year 7 admissions, families who are planning to go private generally do apply for state places, and then they give them up sooner or later. If they wanted to cause some minor disruption to their local schools they could hold onto them until the start of September, then not turn up, but most people would view that as morally reprehensible. The Government wouldn't know or care, so I'm not sure what the point would be.

I don’t agree with VAT on education of any kind.
I don’t agree with applying for school places just to cause administrative burden.

If this sort of division and tit for tat for very little gain is what we can expect from Labour, I’m disappointed already. I thought we couldn’t get much more divided, but looks like I was wrong. 😕

@riggleroom I just read that as good advice not to let go of one rope while belaying. If a private school family needs a place and asks for one, they will be treated fairly.

Not disingenuous or naive I don't think! And not applying pressure.

The process which the you did a screenshot of said:
1.you make an application, listing some preferred schools
2.they check for spaces in those preferred schools and offer you one if possible
3.if none of those have spaces and the child isn't in school they'll automatically find the closest school with space and give you an offer from there (and suggest some others with space)
4.but if the child already has a school place (state or independent) then they won't do that automatically

You said that if (4) happens then the council washes their hands of you, and it's your own fault for having a school place.
("they're not under any obligation to offer an alternative school for so long as the child is still registered at the private school.")

I'm saying that you've misunderstood that. They'll still give you a place if you need one, they just won't automatically widen the search.

So you could choose another 5 different schools which might have spaces, and re-do the application for those schools, hoping one of them will have space. But I suspect (although the process doesn't say it) that they'd rather you just call them and they can tell you which schools (if any) have spaces then you can apply directly for one of those.

And my own council's website says that they'd rather you did (4) rather than give up an existing space. So you implying that they're somehow going to take you less seriously or punish you for having a private school place is just completely wrong.

People in favour of this policy keep saying - there are plenty of spaces and anyone who moves can have the school allocated to them. If that's the case, why does it matter if people mess around doing this (to be clear - i wont be personally)? Surely all kids will be given a place at a school so it'll be fine?

Yes, I don't think any of this is about disrupting the process.

I've already said that I think that's an urban myth created to stir up divisive anger against private school parents. You can see even from this thread, it's worked. In a previous post, I went through just the first 2 pages of this thread and listed 11 posters aggressively insulting private school parents.

I think it's scaremongering by @riggleroom to suggest that councils won't treat private school families who need a state school place fairly. They'll treat them exactly the same as anyone else.

My council suggests not giving up an existing school place (either state or private) until you have a replacement. I think that's good advice.

No, the intention is that some state school parents might open their eyes and have a touch of empathy for the awful situation many of us who have chosen private find ourselves in.
If this comes in, you don't want our children in your schools, pushing class sizes up etc etc.

@strawberrybubblegum you have been shown proof that there are individuals who are inciting that kind of action and yet you are still denying it is happening! Why?

In our council, if a school is full you go on a waiting list. Parents moving from private then often sit on those lists until a space opens up. At which point they move their child and swallow the term’s fees in lieu of notice. If they are in catchment they sit on the same list as any other child in catchment attending an out of catchment state school and looking to move. If out of catchment they go below in catchment children on the waiting list.

Have links been supplied? I missed that.

I think it seems like a tricky enough job juggling all the school admissions in a council that it would be a horrible thing to do to a couple of council employees.

But no one is!

A pp was able to find 3 posts with people venting that they'd like to. Within 5 posts other posters said not to be stupid. Other posters ignored them because it's obviously stupid ranting.

I found a similar post with someone saying that state school parents should disrupt private school admissions by all applying. Ignored by all. Obviously also stupid ranting.

Some parents might find themselves genuinely looking for a place or else applying as a backup if unsure. As everyone has said, that's normal and not a problem.

I agree that this whole policy is so divisive and harmful. I certainly won't forget the insults and vitriol aimed at my family in a hurry.

Here's the post. It's not really very dramatic!

Notice how almost everyone just ignores them and keeps debating the actual consequences to the policy.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4999699-to-think-that-people-who-agree-with-vat-on-private-school-fees-but-not-on-university-fees-are-hypocrites?reply=134980503

The insults have been vile.

For me this has been Brexit#2 - people naively believing something written on a bus.

I have far wealthier friends who send their DC to state, so will be paying no tax on fees and yet cost the state far more in school places, yet nobody blinks.

I copied the post yesterday and removed usernames. There have been other examples on other threads. It is pretty obvious that it is not an urban myth.

Nope, No empathy here. Private schools should be abolished completely.

It's not that dramatic? It's disgusting. It just doesn't fit your narrow narrative of all the hatred being on one side, that's all.

3 posters obviously just venting disgusts you?

I found the poster earlier on this thread calling private school parents cunts more disgusting.

And all the other insults. Shall I list them?