Request a state school place if you want it or not

[clarkkentsglasses]

This email is doing the rounds aimed at private school parents:

"The idea is to try to flood the Council with requests for urgent school places from September. If they get tens of thousands of emails like this we may see them under pressure."

Basically request a state school place if you want it or not.

Completely idiotic and agree it's childish.

"I don’t know where you get the idea that all private schools are like Eton and Harrow. There are failing private schools. Many mediocre private schools too. And many many more that sit on the edge of insolvency"

If they are providing a private education and failing they should be closed, sorry.

In reality I agree with @VenusClapTrap the handwringing on behalf of the state is performative nonsense.

If they are providing a private education and failing they should be closed, sorry.

Though how do you measure failure? In the case of the Hamilton school it came down to safeguarding (the head teacher/owner was arrested for assaulting pupils) so was absolutely the right thing. It was also owner-managed so not able to improve by a board appointing new leaders. But people sometimes chose private schools for their very different educational ethos which doesn’t align to Ofsted. An extreme example of this is Summerhill; https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/21606341.summerhill-school-leiston-gains-government-backed-award-famously-threatened-closure/

I think there’s a mix of dc in private schools. Having a new car means nothing. It will belong to the company! Holidays is an area people could cut down but I’ve seen plenty of parents not having multiple holidays.

I think the majority in private schools will stay there but there’s a danger for small schools who act as “haven” schools where dc haven’t gelled in a state school. Many of these parents aren’t rich. Of course grandparents might help out.

What might happen is dc applying for state in YR or Y7. There could be a few pinch points with other dc being displaced from preferred schools. Many parents won’t disturb primary or secondary education when part way through but starting in state might be better if parents worry about money. All dc must be considered in line with admissions policies: it’s the law.

"Though how do you measure failure?"

It was you that mentioned failing private schools. But a short list would be safeguarding failures, lack of sufficient progress by students, lack of adequate facilities, not ensuring adequate progression to the next level ( secondary school or University/work).

@TizerorFizz

"I think the majority in private schools will stay there but there’s a danger for small schools who act as “haven” schools where dc haven’t gelled in a state school. Many of these parents aren’t rich. Of course grandparents might help out."

I agree with this, but aren't these smaller schools the ones that charge significantly lower fees in the first place? so 15 % VAT would not be a major price hike? The average day school fee in the UK for secondary is 18k so there must be some that are significantly lower priced.

That's really awful. State schools are struggling as it is without having to deal with thousands of fake requests.

@SallyWD

I agree, however, as state school places have already been allocated for next year, they'll either be applying for places that are unfilled or will have their application binned as applications have not opened yet. It won't create that much work.

For the benefit of those who think there are plenty of spare places, the reality is that 18% of schools in England currently have more pupils than their official capacity.

There are, in theory, enough spare places to absorb all pupils currently attending independent schools. The problem is that the places may not be where they are needed. If you need to find space for 50 more pupils and local schools are already full, the fact that schools 30 miles away have spare places doesn't help.

@prh47bridge "that 18% of schools in England currently have more pupils than their official capacity."

Which of course also means that 82% do not have more pupils than capacity.

"If you need to find space for 50 more pupils and local schools are already full, the fact that schools 30 miles away have spare places doesn't help."

Wouldn't 50 children leaving a private school and all being within the same catchment be unlikely? Students travel from far wider distances to attend them?

Genuine question.

Yes, many people are looking at the national picture rather than the local one. Nationally there may be enough places, but it will cause local problems. A school place in Glasgow is of no use if you live in Cambridge for example.

Councils don’t bin applications. People can apply for places at any point and the council have to find them a space. If more than statutory walking distance away then the council also have to provide transport for free.

@Aladdinzane I think it depends where they are and what they offer. Certainly SE doesn’t really have “cheap” schools. Cheapest private primary here is £4000 a term. So vat isn’t that much on top but it is if you have 3 dc! The best prep is £4600 to £7200 for ks2/3. It goes up to y8. Vat would be noticeable on those fees. However the difference between these schools is vast! The more expensive school is aiming for schools like Wycombe Abbey and Cheltenham Ladies College the former is looking for local grammar but not very successfully! The curriculum and facilities are therefore very different with the latter having dedicated art, sport, music and drama and science facilities and 420 pupils.

Its fair to say a lot paying £4000 aren’t the same people as those paying £7200. The higher fees won’t be affordable for many of the cheaper school parents. They certainly could not pay for Wycombe Abbey and don’t aspire to this type of school either. Some at the more expensive school will struggle with fees. Fee hikes can shake a few out. I think, as I said earlier, the natural starting times is when most parents will review finance and apply for state if they need to.

@Sloejelly

They may or may not bin them, but mostly applications for secondary and primary begin on 1st of September for the following academic year.

"People can apply for places at any point and the council have to find them a space."

Yes, and if people are applying for places for now and creating work for councils then that is really despicable and PE parents doing so are really not showing themselves in a good light.

" If more than statutory walking distance away then the council also have to provide transport for free."

2 miles for under 8s, 3 miles for over.

Most people will be under that in any town or city setting. However, the transport will only be supplied once the child takes up the place, which as the parents do not intend to, won't happen.

If they bin them they will be breaking the law. They must accept applications all year round. The application process you refer to is simply the main application process for starting primary or secondary. They also have an ongoing obligation to place children in schools year round.

Do you think councils can ignore people moving house within the country or immigrants and refugees arriving at other times of year?

@Aladdinzane It’s illegal to bin a school application. They have to be taken as genuine and some will be. There’s no cut off date for in year applications. LAs have closing dates for phases of education, where parents express preferences, YR and Y7. At other times the LA will receive applications and allocate schools according to admissions criteria.

"They must accept applications all year round"

Ok, but they aren't looking at them or processing them until the application process starts. Creates no extra work right now.

"Do you think councils can ignore people moving house within the country or immigrants and refugees arriving at other times of year?"

No, not what I said at all, and also not what PE parents are doing ( if they are it really is awful behaviour).

Yes, most schools are not at or over capacity. However, locally the position can be very different.

50 children leaving a private school and being in the same catchment is more likely than you think. Whilst some pupils do travel long distances to attend, particularly where it is a boarding school, independent schools that only take day pupils often draw mostly from the local area. To give an example, there are two independent schools near me that only take day pupils. Between them they have about 1,500 pupils, of which around 50% live within walking distance from the schools and over 95% are within 10 miles.

@TizerorFizz

The binning was a bit of hyperbole. They aren't going to be allocating anyone for a 2025 entry as a result of an application sent now, and if parents are requesting spaces where they won't actually take them up in 2024, this is an awful and spiteful action which really doesn't paint them in a good light.

I'd imagine most PE parents wouldn't go anywhere near this.

Being ‘within walking distance’ could still encompass numerous school catchments though. I can walk to at least 10 different primary/secondary schools from here. Some are a 2 minute walk, some are 5, others 10/20. All walkable though.

@Shinyandnew1

I think it has to be within 2 miles for under 8s.

Ok, but they aren't looking at them or processing them until the application process starts. Creates no extra work right now.

If they receive an application today they must look at it either today or in the next few days. If it is in an in-year application they must try to place the child within a short time frame - a couple of weeks. If it is a late application for starting primary or secondary after the summer then that must be put into the system straight away. There is no waiting for an ‘application process’ to start. The application process happens every day.

@Sloejelly

"If they receive an application today they must look at it either today or in the next few days"

If you insist. But for a 2025 start application it will be filed, and then gather dust till all the applications are in.

"There is no waiting for an ‘application process’ to start. The application process happens every day."

There is for 2025 entry.

If some PE parents are going to send spurious applications for in year entry or late entry and create work out of spite then it says a lot about them, rather than about the impact of this tax.

They really don't come out of it well, and if this gets any publicity, public opinion will be very firmly against them. This policy is already popular.

You are trying to shift the goal posts. If it is a 2025 entry to start primary or secondary why are you referring to private education parents? Those looking to start primary will still be at nursery or at home and some will still be only two years old, and neither group would have private school places yet. They are just parents, not private parents. Loads of parents who end up in private put in state school applications then switch depending on the state place or private school place they are offered. In some areas it is what causes considerable shifts on state waiting lists between April and September. Parents who are considering private would also be wise to put in state applications in case of changes in circumstances too.

@Sloejelly

I'm not trying to shift the goal posts, I'd have assumed that anyone applying for state school places would be doing so for 2025 entry rather than 2024 because 2024 places have been allocated/ forcing the local authority to run around to find you a space when you don't intend to take it up, just out of spite, is rather repugnant behaviour.

I'm referring to private parents due to the fact that this is something private parents are being encouraged to do?

"Those looking to start primary will still be at nursery or at home and some will still be only two years old, and neither group would have private school places yet."

And neither will have applications processed with places allocated untill applications open for their application cycle, essentially they'll be put in a folder somewhere and left.