Labour confused and arguing among themselves over VAT on school fees

[Another76543]

This policy is getting more ridiculous by the day.

We have the shadow Attorney General who doesn’t understand the basic concept that the VAT position and charitable status are entirely separate issues. She also doesn’t understand that it’s parents and not schools who will pay the charge.

“the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for schools, such as in Eton or Winchester or whatever, to be seen as a charity and that, therefore, they should not be paying VAT on the huge fees”

This statement is factually incorrect on two things.

She also seems to think that any money raised will be spent on breakfast for children. The potential money has already been allocated to new teachers. They seem to think they can spend the same money twice.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-labour-institute-for-fiscal-studies-education-secretary-winchester-b2559439.html

The Party are also now fighting among themselves over this proposal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-bridget-phillipson-labour-david-lynch-london-b2559684.html#

“sign of divisions within Sir Keir Starmer’s party over the policy”

I felt more comfortable when this was Labour's proposal and glad that Lib Dem's still have that plan. Taking away charitable status and charging business rates feels like it targets schools (who have put up fees and created arms race on facilities to attract Russian/ foreign wealth) rather than hard working eg NHS parents.

@Another76543 Thank you. And your thoughts on what Conservatives have done over last 14 years? Do you agree with the budget cuts to state schools? Or contextual offers at Uni's?

Good idea

I think that too many state schools are failing our children, and that shouldn’t be the case. Funding cuts certainly haven’t helped, but the problems run deeper than simple question of funding alone. Is the current funding being spent in the most efficient way for example? Something should have been done about the state of some of our schools long before now. I don’t know enough about contextual offers to comment, but I do know that Cambridge University has scrapped their state admission targets because it was presumably not achieving the desired effect.

BIWI
Oh dear @ Clavinova- is that the best that you can do? I'm sure RR wasn't single-handedly responsible for that. But it does illustrate that she has a background in finance

It's not something to boast about if you are an economist in the retail mortgages team at the time though is it;
HBOS’s share of new mortgage lending halves to 8%, its lowest level for seven years. Pricing errors are blamed.

therefore to deride her by using speech marks to say she's an economist (i.e. implying she knows nothing) is really not appropriate.

You must be thinking of a different poster - although I would point out that RR only worked for the Bank of England for a few years in her 20s.

I could mention her recent book;

Oct 2023 The book, The Women Who Made Modern Economics, was launched at an Institute for Government event ...

The Financial Times said its reporters had spotted more than 20 examples of apparent plagiarism in the book, including entire sentences and paragraphs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67225980
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/10/26/rachel-reeves-plagiarism-wikipedia-labour-party-book/

on radio 5 just now the labour candidate (didn’t catch their name) said the school vat was going to fund the nurseries in primary schools they are promising. I thought it was meant to be for teachers?

Ah the problem is your view is London centric and you haven't got any experience outside of London. That makes sense.
The only issue is that England is more than London and you can't apply what happens in London across the rest of the country because there are different sets of circumstances

@Another76543
In what way do the problems in state schools run deeper? They were in a pretty good place during the Blair years. Could you clarify what you mean?
As you know from your own home finances, (which is the point of your thread) if you don't have the budget for something things can be pretty bleak.
You make the budget cuts of the last 10 years sound like a nuisance; those who work in state education would be incredulous of how lightly you treat the seriousness of it.

But if someone’s mental health is so poor they can’t feed their children, yes their children should be removed. Children belong in homes where they are looked after adequately.

I would rather pay more taxes for a state with addresses issues. Throwing weetabix and milk at everyone might be less expensive, but doesn’t deal with weekends or 1/3 of the year where children aren’t even at school. It’s not a real solution. It just looks good for labour, which is the only reason they are doing it.

i agree with a PP that the school has become a catch-all for societal problems and they are expected to do way more than a school should.

"Ah the problem is your view is London centric and you haven't got any experience outside of London. That makes sense."

:) nice try, but another fail, I started my career in the North of England and moved to London later. Most of my family are still outside of London.

However, the person's comment about London was also rubbish.

The Private school parents are doing an exceptionally bad job in these debates.

I heard that too. Going to find 3,000 new nurseries for 100,000 kids.

I think they are banking on this money. So, I’d pay £3,600 extra in VAT if I stayed, but they’ll be paying £7,200 a year if I leave to go state. So they need 2 private kids to stay before they break even if my DC moves. That’s before they make any money.

Surely someone is doing the maths here 🤷‍♀️

@Another76543
A link about contextual offers (not state school admissions quota which is different) What do you think of this Conservative policy of levelling up - has it been a good thing? Was this enough to bring parity to outcomes and make sure we get the best doctors etc not the ones best prepared by school for University admissions.
https://www.ucas.com/file/86786/download?token=zVfQ-oho#:~:text=As%20part%20of%20their%20contextualised,will%20not%20affect%20their%20acceptance.

It has been allocated to teachers and mental health support. Breakfast was to be funded by non dom changes. Their own pledges stated that:

• Higher standards in schools.Recruiting 6,500 more teachers to ensure every child is taught by a specialist, paid for by ending tax breaks for private schools.
• Better wellbeing for young people. Employing mental health support staff in every school, paid for by ending tax breaks for private schools.
• Giving every child the best start to the day. Introducing free breakfast clubs in every primary school in England, paid for by closing the loophole which allows some mega rich people who live in the UK to avoid paying tax.

So, either that pledge has now been changed and the manifesto will show that, or neither Thornberry nor the interviewee you heard understand their own policies. I think the nurseries policy is a new one announced today, unless I’ve missed it before.

I agree that children should always come first and should be wherever they are best taken care of. I wholeheartedly agree that these issues should be addressed in a comprehensive manner with a long term solution based approach. But I see no commitment to this from any political party and in the interim I don’t think ensuring children are fed is going to cause any harm.

Every damn election, any discussion of policy on mumsnet turns into a tory hunt. It’s getting boring.

So why can't you understand how some people simply do not have access to decent state schools? Or don't have London type salaries?

If charitable status was removed from private schools who ends up owning their assets?

If charitable status is removed from them, should it also be removed from academy trusts (state tun schools)?

@twistyizzy

Because those paying in any area for private school are going to be higher than the average income for that area.

You don't have to have a London salary to send kids in Durham to private school, but you certainly need higher than the average for the city, you will almost always therefore live in the catchement for one of the good schools in the city too.

@Aladdinzane what about if there is only one state school in your town and it is inadequate, but there is a private school in the same town. How does your argument work there?

Not if you are rural

The best state schol in Durham has a catchment of around 0.5 miles, sky high house prices and a high number of kids of academics. We can't afford a house there that's for sure! It is financially more selective than the private school near it.

"what about if there is only one state school in your town and it is inadequate, but there is a private school in the same town. How does your argument work there?"

and how many people live in a town where there is one state school?

We can't make policy based on a tiny level of exceptions.

But even then, your private school is going to be cheaper than those in cities :) good for you eh?

@twistyizzy "The best state schol in Durham has a catchment of around 0.5 miles, sky high house prices and a high number of kids of academics. "

You can buy houses in the catchement area of the Durham Johnston quite easily for under 300k a quick google shows houses for sale in Merryoaks, the townhouses on what used to be New College playing fields etc all for under 300k. This is just from a cursory glance.

Considering if you were to choose Durham school over this you'd be paying over 90 thousand in 6 years just on school fees you'd be well able to afford most of the properties that are in the catchment area ( you'd have paid more than a 3rd of the two I've just identified in this time).

You really are talking rot.

Couldn’t agree more. Labour are losing tons of votes now in this area because of their inability to understand and project a unified front. I’m voting Lib Dem now as are many others in my peer group.

It’s now on the bbc that the vat is going to fund this childcare?