Labour confused and arguing among themselves over VAT on school fees

[Another76543]

This policy is getting more ridiculous by the day.

We have the shadow Attorney General who doesn’t understand the basic concept that the VAT position and charitable status are entirely separate issues. She also doesn’t understand that it’s parents and not schools who will pay the charge.

“the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for schools, such as in Eton or Winchester or whatever, to be seen as a charity and that, therefore, they should not be paying VAT on the huge fees”

This statement is factually incorrect on two things.

She also seems to think that any money raised will be spent on breakfast for children. The potential money has already been allocated to new teachers. They seem to think they can spend the same money twice.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-labour-institute-for-fiscal-studies-education-secretary-winchester-b2559439.html

The Party are also now fighting among themselves over this proposal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-bridget-phillipson-labour-david-lynch-london-b2559684.html#

“sign of divisions within Sir Keir Starmer’s party over the policy”

@nearlylovemyusername

Yes and where are the biggest staff shortages for frontline NHS? Nurses and social care workers who are very unlikely to be using private schools. Doctors who are much more likely have a lower shortage rate, which is down to a large range of reasons.

There are some areas where there are skills shortages, but in many, many cases, people massively over value their skill set and how irreplaceable they are. They also massively over estimate just how geographically mobile they are too.

Most people, no matter how high their salary ( in fact often the higher their salary) are quite easily replaceable.

The argument about ‘I will work harder I pay for schools but not for a fancy handbag’ really ring true for me.

I have a certain salary requirement but if I didn’t have kids it would be significantly lower and if I didn’t think private school was needed it would be significantly lower again. My kids have spent most of their primary years in state primary. It was okay but frankly not much more than. That. I want more for them and in my areas that needs private secondary.

but if I couldn’t afford it, then I wouldn’t work full time. I would spend my time taking htme to all the extra curricular stuff that they currently do in school time. A fancy handbag wouldn’t be on my radar. I spent as much time as is absolutely possible with my children as is compare with a full time job in the City. It’s way more time than my parent spent at any of my events so I have no regrets. But when my 7 year old already gets called ‘posh’ at school for simply being from a middle class professional background then fuck anyone else. I’ll do what it takes to give my kids the best I can.

I don't work a PAYE job. Neither does my partner. We have created businesses which would close without us. Perhaps someone else would fill the void, perhaps there would be no void. But with 100% certainty we will pay less tax because we will absolutely work less. Why would we work so much? We don't care about stuff, we care about our children and would reduce hours for more family time.

Those others would be pretty silly. It does not matter if roles half, every pupil who moves will be unnecessary expenditure. Less for state school pupils, who should be benefiting from having more money per head in the pot.

Many families do save. We saved. However a 20% rise is simply too much. Especially for families with more than one child. There will be people expected to cough up sums like £20k extra in tax a year. That kind of money is not met by cancelling sky.

"we have created businesses which would close without us. Perhaps someone else would fill the void, perhaps there would be no void. But with 100% certainty we will pay less tax because we will absolutely work less. Why would we work so much? We don't care about stuff, we care about our children and would reduce hours for more family time."

Good for you. I doubt you will actually do any of that.

". There will be people expected to cough up sums like £20k extra in tax a year. That kind of money is not met by cancelling sky."

Funny that, private school parents on MN always make out like it is achievable if you just cut your cloth.

Anyone paying 20K extra, would currently be paying 133k in school fees currently (assuming 15 % is the figure to pay). I doubt people at this level will change or will need to change much.

Please please don't feed this bot pretending to be a teacher of economics - multiple people are trying to explain the behavioral and then economic impact of policy, quoting there real life circumstances, but this posted keeps on responding to every single post with the same answer "I don't believe".

I hope it's poor quality A"I". If it's for real, then no amount of funding will save education with teachers like this

I've stopped responding to him because he hasn't come up with any new arguments. I also have no respect for him because he says he worked at a private school. Any teachers I know who are against the private system would never work in a private school. They're brilliant teachers and do a great job. If anybody could change my mind about private school, it would be them, not this 'rent a gob'.

"Please please don't feed this bot pretending to be a teacher of economics "

I am a teacher of economics and have been for years, I've worked in schools management too.

"multiple people are trying to explain the behavioral and then economic impact of policy, quoting there real life circumstances"

Multiple people have given "real life" circumstances, on the internet, which should always be taken with pinches of salt, and also which have been tailored to suit a point. They also aren't representative of the data on households that send their children to private school.

"I hope it's poor quality A"I". If it's for real, then no amount of funding will save education with teachers like this"

You really cover yourself in glory with the personal attacks.

PS: This you will love. I teach in the private sector, I'm well paid by private parents who are always SO happy about my teaching and the support I give for university applications. My results from both A level and EPQ are outstanding.

The fact that you can't rebut my points and have attacked me says a lot about you, rather than me.

@MyNameIsFine

"Any teachers I know who are against the private system would never work in a private school."

I'm not against the private system. :) Keep up the good work

Well, I've been saying 'him' and he hasn't corrected me. I guess I assumed it was a man, because it's a very male thing to think that because you've read a few books or looked up a few statistics that you know it all! Women have strong opinions, of course, but they just don't approach things in quite this way.

@Aladdinzane - will you be sending your own DCs to your private school and getting a hefty discount? What will the discount be? Will there be VAT on the discounted fees?
How do your colleagues with similar discounts feel about the VAT? Will teacher discounts in private schools go down?
Personally I always thought it was fascinating that the discount is not a benefit in kind and taxed as such.

I can sort of believe the person @Alladinzane may have created. If he were teaching in a very elitist and expensive school full of very rich parents but he himself chose teaching and now feels a bit like a loser/doubting his choices? So happy to stick it to the rich who chose a different type of job and made loads of cash? Or maybe he himself is a trust fund baby so got to choose a passion based job, rather than income based.
I mean there is a bit of a conflict there in elite private schools because the normal staff aren’t earning big bucks (apart from the head and management) and yet the kids they teach are predominantly properly rich.

@Araminta1003

My children went to state, out of the system now at uni and costing an arm and a leg.

"How do your colleagues with similar discounts feel about the VAT? Will teacher discounts in private schools go down?"

I haven't been privy to this information yet, tbf, there aren't that many staff with children here. The staff discount is pretty hefty and I'd imagine any VAT payable would be after the discount had been applied.

"Personally I always thought it was fascinating that the discount is not a benefit in kind and taxed as such."

Some schools, I am told, have budgeted them in as bursaries in the past, however I agree. In state schools they can't give staff who do lunch duties free lunches for the week ( only on the day of the lunch) as it would count as a benefit in kind.

In state schools we can give staff priority admissions for their own children and for good schools, that can really help with recruitment.

@Araminta1003

"So happy to stick it to the rich who chose a different type of job and made loads of cash?"

Why is this policy sticking it to the rich? I don't think it is at all. It's a way of raising taxes at a very difficult point where we are already paying record levels of tax. The entire state is crying out for some increased spending but there doesn't seem to be any room in direct taxation, or deficit spending, in order to do this.

"Or maybe he himself is a trust fund baby so got to choose a passion based job, rather than income based."

Still loving the obsession with gender, and now speculation about me being well off, I'm highly paid, a higher income rate payer, but no trust fund, it was all earned.

@Araminta1003

Yes they can, they obviously do in privates as well, it also helps with staff retention. There are lots of people in this school though that have had significant post grad careers and then have come to teaching, and family life, later, and so most have smaller children whilst mine are out of the nest.

@Alladinzane “My children went to state, out of the system now at uni and costing an arm and a leg.”

Well that was your own choice if you live in London. Plenty of great unis in London and they could have stayed home, no? And just got the loan?

So @alladinzane - if your DCs are at uni and tuition fees go up because they have to now, you are in full support, right? Because it is reasonably foreseeable that this must happen to protect universities?

Not sure why Mr Chip's reply was deleted! But never mind.

Their choice, and mine yes.

They are only eligible for the basic maintenance loan which doesn't cover even rent so needs topped up. It might have been cheaper to stay in London, but being London kids, they wanted to apply elsewhere.

One is finished and is back at home though :)

@Araminta1003 good points, however, when you mentioned on another thread that you studied at Oxbridge I believe you - the way you make your points and the language you use meets this image.

The way PP presents themselves does not match the image created. I fully agree that some of PS teachers can be quietly begrudging families there (and probably rightly so), but they wouldn't post at this level. At least not teachers at the schools I have experience with

" Because it is reasonably foreseeable that this must happen to protect universities"

I can see fees rising yes, and would support that, but that will be payable with the loan? It doesn't exclude anyone, in fact I think there is data showing that there are more people from low income backgrounds studying now than ever before.