How soon might a Labour Government put 20% VAT tax on private school fees?

[jennylamb1]

That really. Given that an election date has been declared for July, how soon might a Labour Government set their first budget?

What do you not understand about "I do not support the VAT policy"? The reason I mentioned my own background was only to disabuse you of your predictable Labour voter stereotypes. However you so very predictably use it as ammunition. I am fully aware of my privilege. If you are so down with the state school kids then your "Jayden" reference is doubly reprehensible, as opposed to doubly ironic, as you claim.

Biggest determinant of a child getting into Oxbridge is the level of education of the mother/books at home etc - not which school they go to.

This is disingenuous and if that's the case then the whole VAT argument is futile. So send children to the worst school possible and they will be absolutely fine as long as you have a top degree. Of course not, there are many other interconnected factors at play and it is batshit to ignore that.

@Boater well said. Whilst we didn't do it through choice I totally agree with you freeing space for others will surely benefit to the society and those who can't afford.

I know a few who are now moving from
Private to state, I also know some who are now moving close to those good state schools to be able to get their children in… in the end we need a different solution much more money. After all we find money for other things we should find money for education too...

But surely the better thing to do would be to encourage support from the private sector to the state sector? Here’s a response from a Labour MP who does see the benefit of that:

“Thank you so much for contacting me about proposals for VAT on independent school fees. You didn’t include your full address in your message to confirm you live in the constituency, and due to parliamentary protocol I am usually unable to correspond with non-consitutents. However, in recognition of the fact this relates to Labour policy I will provide you with a full response, which is below. If you want to continue the conversation, please respond with your full address to confirm you are a constituent, or speak to your local Labour candidate. If you do not know who that is, please let me know and I will pass on their details.

I think it is worth saying that I am not against the principle of private schools. The Labour Party is not in the business of restricting parents' choices - that has always been part of my politics. Keir Starmer and Anas Sarwar have been clear on this too. The independent sector plays a critical role in the education ecosystem in this country and we don’t want to interfere in that.

I also know from personal experience and that of constituents that many send their children to the independent sector for specific educational needs such as dyslexia, that aren’t necessarily dealt with in the same way as the state sector.

Part of the problem is that the UK and Scottish Governments have made an unholy mess of our education system, with state schools underfunded and over capacity. The key strategic position of any politician must be to improve the state sector to make it as good as the private sector. As a former WHEC pupil myself, I know the power of good state education with inspirational teachers and opportunities for everyone.

I have been in constant contact with the Principals at George Watson’s College and George Heriots to hear their concerns but also their ideas on how to take this forward. I also had a very good meeting recently with SCIS (Scottish Council for Independent Schools) who acknowledged the need to see more funding into the state sector. They are coming back to me on some other ideas too. It is important to get this right. I am due to meet the Principals again soon to go through this in more detail and I’m currently linking the local independent schools with the education department at the council to explore this joint partnership working in more detail.

I will also be discussing with them the issue of how we can support those parents who are most “price sensitive” to these changes.

The independent sector does have the capacity to be of enormous benefit to our wider education system and our communities and we should find a mechanism to continue to support that wider community benefit. I'll also keep trying to facilitate the talks between the sector and the council to jointly improve education for all pupils in the city, like in the way they've come together in the local cluster to be able to provide Chinese language courses for local children and coding.

I also realise that there is some debate about how much resource this policy will provide. If you’re interested in the details, there’s a good analysis from the Institute for Fiscal Studies here: https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending. 

However, I know recent inflationary fee increases, cost of living more generally and post-Covid costs have brought more families to the very edge of affordability.

I must stress again that Edinburgh does have unique problems and opportunities that are not comparable to anywhere else in the UK. I’m very lucky to represent a constituency with some of the best state schools in Scotland but there simply isn’t enough capacity - which has skewed the education and property market for a long time. Many parents must either pay additional capital costs for a home close to a good state school or pay the additional revenue in school fees to go into the independent sector. This is the reality and I absolutely understand this.

On the issue of the impact on state schools, education is devolved so it will be up to the Scottish Government to respond to the increased demand. They will receive Barnett consequentials from the money raised, however, we have no way to ensure this is spent on education. I am concerned that they may simply push the problem onto councils, as due to the Scottish Government’s large and persistent cuts to their budget many Councils are already struggling.

I have also written to Edinburgh Council to ask what contingency plans they are making in the event of a large increase in pupils to state schools. The education convenor has let me know that the Council’s Education, Children and Families Committee is currently preparing a report on the issue, to be considered at the committee’s meeting in April. Once the report is out, I will discuss the Council’s plans to ensure they are robust enough to withstand any potential increase in demand for places.

More broadly, as the VAT policy evolves (you'll have seen there are no plans to change charitable status) we shall see the impact on the city overall. I have also been feeding the specific issues of Edinburgh and ideas from the sector back into the Shadow Education Secretary directly. I've also been sending all the correspondence I have received to the Shadow team too.

I absolutely understand the arguments you are making and will work, as I have always done, with the sector to find ways to best implement the policy and alleviate the problems. I will also feed your thoughts back into the shadow education team as we continue the process of drafting our manifesto.

I will continue to work with all involved and I’m hugely passionate about how we can have all schools in the area working together to provide the very best education for all pupils, both in the private and state sector.

Kind regards,
Ian

Ian Murray MP
Labour Member of Parliament for Edinburgh South
Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland
Constituency Office: 0131 662 4520
House of Commons: 0207 219 7064

You are completely wrong @Boater . They do lots of things including supplying funding for projects and lending them specialist subject teachers on a weekly basis. PM me and I will give you more details.

Our local public school lets commoners pay for kids' swimming lessons in their pool.

The prep school in our village does fuck all. It even has its own Beavers and Cubs group in their 'forest school' so the children don't have to mix with the locals in the scout hut.

@Dibblydoodahdah But surely the better thing to do would be to encourage support from the private sector to the state sector?"

I don't agree. For one thing, private schools have mostly been failing to do this for many years now-remember the requirement for them to justify their charitable status? And for another, I find it wrong on many levels to suggest that what state schools need is support from the private sector-who will largely have little first, or even second hand, experience of the way state schools operate or what they need...

Why did I send my DC to independent school:

1. My oldest DC (who we now know if academically gifted) was bored at his day nursery. They encouraged the transfer to the pre-school at a private prep because they knew he would be more stimulated there.
2. It meant I could continue with my very demanding career without my DC losing out on extra curricular activities because they could do them all at school. I wasn’t actually a higher rate taxpayer when my DC joined the school but I knew there was lots of potential in my career so I took the hit even though it meant I was earning very little in relative terms for years.
3. I had no family support and my local primary school didn’t offer after school or breakfast clubs. The wrap around care at the private school was therefore a major draw.
4. In the previous years before my DC was due to start primary there was a massive shortage of school places locally due to bulge years and school places not being added quickly enough to deal with the large numbers of new builds in the area. Some reception pupils ended up without a school place for weeks, months, with tutors being sent to their homes. Completely impossible for me to deal with due to my job and no family support.

Why do I continue with private school? Well I actually have my oldest DC is a state school. My youngest continues because he has suffered from extreme school refusal and anxiety. He is now settled at his private school who gave him great support with these issues. It’s an all through and he is already familiar with some of the teachers in the senior section because they have taken him for certain lessons. This is making him much less worried about senior school. We have suggested other schools both private and state for us to view and consider but this results in him becoming very stressed and anxious. I therefore have huge sympathy with those parents whose DC have SEN or other needs and whom removed them for state schools who weren’t supporting them and are now extremely worried about having to remove them from the private schools that they are settled in.

Oh I thought lots of private school teachers had taught in the state sector. Well that’s what’s often said on these threads when it’s suggested that private school teachers who lose their jobs will just go back to state schools? Is that not true then?

Those schools will be unaffected - and will be raking the cash back from the taxpayer.

While these are the schools that get the lefties all twitchy, the ones that will be hit are the small ones that aren't well known 'names' that cater for the SEN kids and those who can just afford to avoid the local sink comp.

hamsterno1 · Today 11:09
Our local public school lets commoners pay for kids' swimming lessons in their pool.
The prep school in our village does fuck all. It even has its own Beavers and Cubs group in their 'forest school' so the children don't have to mix with the locals in the scout hut.

Hamster why not just say ‘I hate all rich, posh people’. It would save you a lot of typing.

The school my son goes to gives lots of bursaries and opened classes for lots of Ukrainian refugees. Once VAT kicks in, they won’t be able to support these children

Private school is open to 100% of the population. I don't know the % of the population that couldn't afford it - but it won't be 93%. A chunk of the 93% will have decided not to use private schools (probably by using the private by any other name state schools).

Exactly! Most of my friends are earning 6 figure salaries and their kids go to state schools or grammar schools.

None of my neighbours’ kids goes to a private school, they live in houses worth above £1m. But they are all tutored in all main subjects.

Whatever they do will be down to choices that they make. If they want to maintain charity status they will still have to do more than educate the children at the school.

What will be the benefits of maintaining the charity status then? If they cannot afford to provide bursaries, then they will re-register.

@Barbadossunset by most people's standards, I am both rich and posh.

I just have a problem with people claiming altruism and social inclusion where there is none.

@WorkingMumLDN "The school my son goes to gives lots of bursaries and opened classes for lots of Ukrainian refugees."

Not sure why VAT would stop them offering classes to Ukrainian refugees, to be honest. Incidentally, why just Ukrainians?

And you know as well as I do that most bursaries are little more than token amounts and do not, in general, go to genuinely disadvantaged families.

My DC’s state school also took in a number of Ukrainian children, took on extra TAs to support them, and are supporting them with university and conservatoire applications. No bursaries required.

And presumably happy with your DC’s state school? What would you do if you were like me and a teacher friend told you not to send your kids to the local state school (which she has first hand experience of). What would you do?

Conservatoire applications, you must have a fantastic state school then, our local one doesn’t even offer music GCSE. It’s interesting that those who seem to dislike private schools so much always seem to have amazing state schools available to them.

I do not recognise that last sentence at all. I have seen them be 100% (many Ukrainians but also UK families). Normally they are linked to a 'talent' of some sort.

What will be the benefits of maintaining the charity status then? If they cannot afford to provide bursaries, then they will re-register.

If they de register as a charity, then they become liable for corporation tax, lose business rates relief (although independent schools in Scotland have already lost that), lose gift aid and inheritance tax breaks, and stamp duty exemptions.

Because it's not straightforward, quick or cheap to get an EHCP. Councils are already overwhelmed with applicants, missing deadlines and doing everything they can to refuse them because they can't afford them. They do not need a bundle of extra applicants because of this.
Any impact from this not considered by the IFS report the policy is based on.

Also there are the kids who aren't bad enough to get one but will still be overlooked and struggle in large classes with stretched staff, potentially exasperating anxiety disorder to the point they cannot to go to school. I personally know too many instances of this happening and there are more in this thread.

@Dibblydoodahdah I'm not criticising your choice at all. I completely understand and yes, I would have made exactly the same choice and the same sacrifices if i had been in your position.

But that doesn't change the fact that I am in favour of this policy.

As for bursaries, yes they are usually for the gifted and those children have to be considerably more gifted than those paying.

So it's not really improving accessibility is it. Just for the very few special and worthy ones.

You are confusing scholarships with bursaries. Scholarships are usually token amounts but bursaries are usually not. Some pupils get both and up to 100% fee remission. My DC’s school has Ukrainian pupils on 100% fee remission.