Vat Question????????

[Anoth]

Can I ask a silly question??
We have been given our school fees for 24/25 academic year now for the school my daughter attends.
My question is if labours policy comes in half way through an academic year will the schools be allowed to put the fees up for the remainder of that academic year? Eg if we start paying X amount on September and then labour get in and introduce the added vat in October. Will the fees go up in Jan of that academic year? Normally fees remain un changed for the whole of the academic year once fees have been published but I understand this is a strange situation!
Just wanted to know if I need to prepare to save more for 24/25 fees just in case or will these that are now published still remain until the end of July 25??.
Thanks!

The good news is that the policy is slowly starting to attract more scrutiny and the more it does, the more holes are appearing in it. Many of which a lot of us on here already knew but these are also now starting to be discussed more widely. I don't think the policy will stand up to scrutiny once you start digging at the impact on SEN, military etc.

2 reports (ASI + EDSK) have now exposed the fundamental flaws with applying VAT to private schools and I expect more will follow

https://neu.org.uk/advice/member-groups/independent-sector/recognition-agreements/independent-schools-neu-recognition

Long list of lots of private schools including the GDST schools and some big names.
This is the union that back in 2018 voted whether to be affiliated with the Labour Party and it was a very close “no” akin to the Brexit vote. I think they have thousands and thousands of private school teachers and are officially non partisan.

Zero comment from them so far on the VAT issue specifically. I would be annoyed if I were a private school teacher and had paid the fee.

@Araminta1003 the reason that state schools can't all be like Skinners is that it's massively academically and socially selective. The student profile of the best grammars will be very similar to that of a private day school (intake from prep schools will be very high, and likely to jump significantly if and when the VAT law is changed, and a lot of their primary intake will be from the more affluent end of the spectrum). These are schools full of bright, motivated kids from families who are massively invested in their children's education. True, they won't get any more funding per capita than other state schools, but they benefit financially from the fact that their places will always be full (unlike failing schools which might be half empty), and they have a lower incidence of high-needs SEN and social problems. They will also attract teachers more easily than a lot of other state schools. They succeed for a lot of the same reasons that private schools succeed - they just have fewer frills, shabbier buildings, less extra curricular range, and higher pupil/teacher ratios.

‘Zero comment from them so far on the VAT issue specifically. I would be annoyed if I were a private school teacher and had paid the fee.’

perhaps the teachers just feel, as many other people do, that it’s fair for VAT to be charged.

It would be remarkable for any group of people to support the move to add VAT to fees purely on a fairness basis when it doesn’t apply anywhere else in the world and indeed is illegal in the EU.

I think your prejudice which you display on virtually every post you make prevents you from taking an objective view of the matter.

I’m not sure private school parents understand how normal schools work. Once you stop paying there’s only so much you can demand.
It’s more of a partnership between school and parent, to do the best for each child, rather than I want this, and as I’m the customer you’ll make it happen.
And if private parents decide to homeschool rather than send their child to a state school, fine.
Thisnwhole thing about VAT on fees though… Some of the private schools aren’t being transparent. Friends school fees have gone up by 30% over 4 years - that’s nothing to do with the government. This issue is the perfect way for schools to keep putting fees up to ‘mitigate’ the coming apparent costs and screw parents over …

I’m not sure private school parents understand how normal schools work.

A lot of private school parents have used the state system for their children and have found that it failed them, which is precisely why they switched to private. Many of us attended state schools ourselves. So, yes, we do understand how “normal” schools work. I’m assuming by “normal” you mean “state”. Private schools are “normal” as well.

It’s more of a partnership between school and parent, to do the best for each child

Unfortunately, too many state schools don’t “do the best for each child”. It’s precisely why many parents choose the private route. Not everyone has access to a good state education.

“I’m not sure private school parents understand how normal schools work.”

Well @Quatty - it is very clear you do not understand how most private schools work.
Private schools are a community of teachers and staff primarily and some management (there is currently a bit of suspicion towards career management). Each pupil/family passes through for a few years. The teachers and staff are there for the 20 plus years quite often where they experience better working conditions due to a higher pupil to staff ratio (and often they are allowed a day off for family reasons and appointments unlike in many state schools, this is just an example). There are expectations to participate in sports, trips in some and many teachers work incredibly hard but overall the working conditions are significantly better and the relationships between the staff in good private schools tend to be very good too. Some even live on school site in school provided premises. However, at the end of the day they are just teachers on teacher salaries. Not rich posh people that you are trying to stuff. Many of these people would have never become teachers if they did not have the private school option available to them. So if you think this will solve the teacher recruitment crisis, the opposite might be the case. If there is no career prospect for many teachers/the lifestyle choice of working in a top private school - even less will enter the profession.

If you tell these private schools to pass on 20% of an ever increasing cost base to the parent group it is very clear that redundancy will happen in many schools, working terms and conditions affected (eg pensions/pay/benefits) and even bankruptcy in some. So you are telling a group of people that they are going to lose their jobs and I suppose they are just being asked to keep their fingers crossed that parents will dig as deep as they can so they keep their jobs. But we know this won’t happen long term. We also know there are far more male teachers in the private sector than the state sector. So we have a Labour Party potentially attacking whole families including their living conditions deliberately (where they have onsite housing). And in some cases we have no real voice for them in their own Unions (because they are keeping schtumm!)

If someone said to me today there is going to be a law whereby all law firm of your nature will now have to pass on VAT at 35% to your clients but some types of law firms are excluded from this and by the way online law firms are excluded and legal services in banks and accountancy firms are also excluded etc - thereby giving all these other people a distinct competitive advantage because the powers to be simply fancy it. What am I going to think? I am going to think to hell with this anti competitive nonsense, I am going to stand up for my human rights etc and I am going to fight this all the way.

So prepare for some private school teachers to be incredibly displeased and the fall out from it. I suppose at the moment many are simply hoping this isn’t going to happen and are coming the “connected” parents and management will try and sort it out.

What is very clear to me as a voter is that neither of the two main parties are willing to put children, young people and Education first and that troubles me on a very deep level, democratically speaking. I do not want to live in a country where the young are so neglected so the elderly and middle aged can keep lining their pockets and politicians who simply pander to their own voting base.

The EU offers Britain a deal for the under 30s all over the press -what is the response from both Tories and Labour. No thanks! To hell with all of them for depriving our children of their fundamental rights to a proper education and travel opportunities abroad. It is time to wake up and fight for your children’s rights whether you are a state or private school parent. They are obviously scared that the young will stay anywhere else but here.

Many seem to forget the value to the economy of private schools. Why anyone wants to try to reduce this positive impact is a mystery. Why on earth would anyone with even an ounce of economic understanding want to harm a sector that contributes so much?

“Independent schools in the United Kingdom make a significant contribution to national and local economies, as well as the communities they serve. In 2021, according to independent economic analysis as set out in this report:

• Schools affiliated to the Independent Schools Council (ISC) made a £14.1 billion contribution to the UK economy. That is equivalent to the total economic activity generated in a city the size of Sheffield.
• The activities of ISC schools also have a significant impact on UK employment. In 2021, they supported around 282,000 jobs across the country, equivalent to the total employed population in a city the size of Liverpool.
• ISC schools also supported £4.3 billion in tax revenues for the UK exchequer. That is sufficient to fund the salaries of 115,000 full-time nurses.
• Scaling the results up to all independent schools across the UK, we estimate their total economic footprint to have been £16.5 billion, associated with over 328,000 jobs, and £5.1 billion in tax revenues.
• The study also found that independent schools save the taxpayer £4.4 billion every year by providing places for pupils who could otherwise be expected to take up a place in the state-funded sector. The ISC schools’ share of that total is £3.8 billion.”

https://www.isc.co.uk/research/independent-schools-economic-impact-report/

Yes thank you @Another76543 - there is no economic base to this policy whatsoever. It is self harming from an economic point of view.

I think that non-private school parents assume that private schools bend over backwards to accommodate every parental request or whim. It’s just not possible.
As a parent you have a contract with the school which clearly lays out what is expected and how your child will be educated. Policies, rules and general information are clearly printed out and given to parents every year. Any changes to policy and you are notified. It basically says that if you’re not happy then go elsewhere.

If you choose not to read the Ts&Cs and subsequently make demands , question decisions or basically throw your toys out of the pram, then you are more likely to be asked to find alternative arrangements. Schools have a duty of care to every one of their pupils not just the local rich kids.

Good schools have waiting lists and can easily fill spaces when a parent flounces or a child is asked to leave. As a result of their independence they can operate zero tolerance, at least three of DS’s year were “expelled” all for behaviour issues. I suspect more left without it being made public knowledge.

I think the funniest thing I heard was from a brand new parent at DS’s primary school who joined the PTA. The first meeting she attended she asked for the uniform to be reviewed/changed because it didn’t really reflect the private status of the school ( no fancy blazer or caps/hats). The headmaster calmly explained that it was the governors job to make such changes and moved on.
I think she was disappointed that her child’s uniform was very practical and looked like every other reception class in the area when she was in town. One of the draws to the school was the practical, understated and therefore cheap uniform. The only thing we had to buy from the school shop was a blazer in senior school and jumper in primary school. Unfortunately if your child was sporty it started to get expensive.

I think it is harder for state schools to deal with demanding parents because it is so much harder to tell them to f@*k off.

‘I think it is harder for state schools to deal with demanding parents because it is so much harder to tell them to f@*k off.’

Having worked with secondaries at a regional level - state and private- I can tell you that you think wrong.

"Perhaps". Or, "perhaps" the teacher and support staff workforce across both sectors, but particularly the private sector, might think it's not great for them if (1) demand contracts (2) employment contracts (3) the contraction is in the sector with the best pay and conditions (4) advocates of the tax like you assume they will take up jobs with, in general, worse pay and conditions and regardless of location, subject and motivation.

Given one of the teaching unions has already expressed significant concern, I fancy my "perhaps" more than yours.

I just came off the phone with a state school teacher who sent his own kids private and says the whole policy is the most stupid thing he has ever heard. His particular gripe is it will distract the DoE for years when they have actual constructive work to do. But he otherwise agreed with, and was closely aware of, everything we have said on here.

"Once you stop paying there’s only so much you can demand.
It’s more of a partnership between school and parent, to do the best for each child, rather than I want this, and as I’m the customer you’ll make it happen."

So now you agree that private school parents won't actually be transforming the failing schools by their mere attendance? Thanks, we're getting through.

Lots on this in the right leaning press at the moment, seems most think the VAT changes are inevitable

Everybody knows it is an economically and socially illiterate policy however it will appeal to the masses of relatively uninformed Labour voters which is why they’re running with it.

People love the idea of new taxes they will never have to pay themselves.

For a government in waiting to employ such a tactic as a headline policy is a pretty depressing state of affairs and doesn’t bode well for the future.

“Lots on this in the right leaning press at the moment, seems most think the VAT changes are inevitable”

They are salivating at the prospect of this policy being such a failure that it will oust the Labour Party come the next election. So they will make sure to highlight all the negatives (which are very obvious to anyone with half a brain) so that the Labour Party will then be paying for their mistakes come the 2028 election.

Voters have been fed rhetoric for years "this is the way to make state schools better". Everyone wants to make state schools better.

The economics of this are just so astonishingly bad. On a narrow fiscal basis alone, the best possible thing for state education would be more private education.

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/private-headteacher-half-parents-financial-help-3020368

I actually don’t agree with the policy but I don’t think it’s going to be such a significant thing that will oust labour. I doubt very much is will raise anything for state schools, there might be some kids that end up going from private to state, some private schools may close, vat may end up having to be charged on other education activities that people didn’t foresee, none of these things are good but nothing that is going to have such a massive effect on the lives of the majority of labour voters that they’ll be turning back to the tories in droves. The fact is most people don’t give a shit unless there is a direct and major effect on them.

Agreed. It won't net any money and may even lose the country money, and will make life significantly worse for some citizens whilst not making it better for many if at all... but the costs probably won't be immediately obvious or easy to break out (since much of the financial cost will come from withdrawn labour resulting in lower general tax take, and cost to the kids whose education is damaged - especially those with SEN - isn't easy to measure ).

So Labour will spin it, the vindictive people who supported it will forget about it, the country will get just a little bit worse than if this policy hadn't been implemented over the next 30 years.

Maybe some economic think tank will analyse the consequences in 10 years time (like Eric Pichet analysing that the French wealth tax cost France twice as much as it took in revenues https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228281017_The_Economic_Consequences_of_the_French_Wealth_Tax). If that analyst shows that it's bad enough (costing significantly more than it takes) the policy might eventually be reversed. But no one will care, because anyone who supported this tax was doing it out of spite and for political reasons and their goal will have been achieved. Some kids will have a significant negative impact on their lives, some just a slight negative impact (due to the overall economic hit to the country) but generally life will go on with everyone just getting on as best they can as usual.

‘the vindictive people who supported it will forget about it,’

oh give over. It’s not up to 90% odd of the population to support your privilege. Your children will be absolutely fine in state schools, despite all the handwringing.
If you use a business service then expect to pay business rates.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f68795b6-5509-4b3d-a51f-ce93366c05da?shareToken=136ce4d10875f121fe30b19f805e99e1

Which is why VAT is a crazy way to raise revenue. You are therefore comparing education with jaffa cakes and marshmallows etc. We value biscuits/cakes more than education just about sums up the argument.

So much bitterness, so little understanding.

I would love to work 3 days a week (as I used to) or else retire earlier. But instead I work more hours to finance the best education I can give my DD. Because I believe that better education actually makes people better versions of themselves: more capable, more open to ideas.

In order to pay a private school £17k to educate my DD, I have to work enough to earn an extra £30k pre-tax. So I'm actually giving the government an extra £13k tax in order to have the privilege of paying for education myself, which saves the government an additional £7k.

Great way to support my privilege - taking an extra £20k off me. I'd love to support any amount of people's privilege if that means them giving me £20k each.