Vat Question????????

[Anoth]

Can I ask a silly question??
We have been given our school fees for 24/25 academic year now for the school my daughter attends.
My question is if labours policy comes in half way through an academic year will the schools be allowed to put the fees up for the remainder of that academic year? Eg if we start paying X amount on September and then labour get in and introduce the added vat in October. Will the fees go up in Jan of that academic year? Normally fees remain un changed for the whole of the academic year once fees have been published but I understand this is a strange situation!
Just wanted to know if I need to prepare to save more for 24/25 fees just in case or will these that are now published still remain until the end of July 25??.
Thanks!

A home Ed group wouldn’t be providing full time education I wouldn’t have thought.

Generally not, but that wasn’t what was suggested. The scenario given was full time joint taught activities:

It is perfectly conceivable that groups of 5 families get together with similar aged children and do just that. If I am hiring the Maths & Science tutor online and Monday and Wednesdays are Science and Maths day at my house whilst I work from home, as a model it could work very well. On Tuesdays and Thursday mornings it is languages, English and History at Y’s house etc. And they share the 1:1 swimming instructor on Friday mornings and music in the afternoon etc

They cannot even get real criminals these days so chances of that happening virtually “zero”.

As Soigneur indicated Ofsted bust dozens every year. But ‘I am unlikely to be caught’ is not general the best reason to not commit a crime.

And again once a homeschooler always a homeschooler is not correct either, people pick and choose.

Which is why more formalised shared arrangement like the scenario suggested is unlikely to be sustainable.

I think introducing VAT could open the door to all sorts of claims. The link I posted above suggested there is argument it could actually contravene the ECHR.

I also believe it is only a matter of time until Government will have to offer a state funded choice of online schooling especially at secondary level. So that is another area gaining traction. I just do not understand why people are not allowed this choice already especially if it suits certain children much more.

The problem is when you go from informal groups meeting on an ad hoc basis which doesn’t meet the definition of a school, to 5 or more children meeting regularly and an organiser taking on the responsibility of booking in tutors, organising timetables and rosters of tutors (whether paid for or volunteer parents) etc, which potentially does. Lots of the unregistered schools that have been investigated have claimed to be home Ed groups (usually with a religious theme).

And I suppose on that note all the parents paying for online schooling right now for their autistic children are they going to be expected to stomp up VAT too? If they don’t have an EHCP in place? What about part time online schooling for home-edders? If I go to one online provider I may pay VAT but if I hire 3 independent tutors I don’t? If I go through a successful online profit making business and get a tutor I don’t pay VAT? But if I pay an in person private school I do? Sounds like an absolute minefield to me the more I think about it.

Do it because you want to though/ think it's the best idea for your child. Not to rebel against the government, because I don't think they really care. As long as your are not breaking the law.

@Araminta1003 online alternative provision providers, even if they have ‘school’ in their title aren’t schools as far as the DfE are concerned, so no.

Ok @Soigneur so in theory redundant private school teachers and ex pupils can sign up to online schools and avoid the VAT. So that is a realistic alternative and will be cheaper? Can such providers be charities if they offer some public benefit?

@Araminta1003 no reason why they couldn't be charities. Lots of charities provide services online. However I suspect the reason that outfits like Kings Interhigh are considered unregistered alternative provision rather than schools is simply a case of regulatory lag and eventually a registration and official inspection programme will be put into place. Whether they will then be classed as schools, or something else, remains to be seen.

This call for evidence suggests that things are already in motion: https://consult.education.gov.uk/behaviour-attendance-exclusions-and-alternative-provision/unregistered-alternative-provision-call-for-eviden/supporting_documents/Unregistered%20AP%20Call%20for%20Evidence%20document.pdf

@Araminta1003 there is a voluntary registration scheme, not sure how many online schools have signed up for it though: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/accreditation-for-online-education-providers/accreditation-for-online-education-providers I guess maybe it will eventually become compulsory.

Thank you @Soigneur . That seems to be a way to get “recognised” and increase credibility but if it were to then attract 20 per cent VAT on fees I cannot see many providers staying in the scheme unless it is compulsory.
I can understand the DFE requiring registration for U.K. online schools with primarily U.K. pupils and U.K. teaching staff (whether self employed or not). But where the business is internationally available (international students and staff) it is more mobile.

Many parents who earn well stay in the U.K. because of their DCs education and I think that needs to be factored in carefully. If the quality goes down due to taxation those families funding the rest of the country will be off and many other jurisdictions are competing for these people. So personally I do not think this ideological move is worth it. There is no business case for it and just a lot of complexity and downside risk, in my opinion. The Labour Party need to remember that U.K. Education is currently a sellable brand that we need to be protective of and not vice versa.

What we need to avoid is higher earners living in a canton in Switzerland, Ireland, Dubai or Luxembourg with teens and working there remotely and using online schools because it no longer makes sense to stay in the U.K. Often you will find it is the successful millennials WITHOUT an inheritance that find themselves making these choices.

@Araminta1003 people emigrate for all sorts of reasons, I doubt that the possibility of VAT on private schooling figures particularly highly on the reasons why people do so and re-location to Switzerland is going to cost rather more than the fee increase at even the priciest school. I don't particularly care about this policy either way - it doesn't affect me or anyone I know as I don't move in those circles. I am however fascinated by the knots that posters are contorting themselves into to point out why it can't possibly work, seemingly oblivious of the fact that dealing with vastly more complex tax issues is BAU at HMRC - I'm sure they will be able to cope with institutions who are so amateurish they didn't realise that price-fixing was illegal.

At the end of the day, I suspect that after all the whinging and foot-stamping most schools, and most of their customers, will suck it up - just as everyone did when the standard VAT rate increased from 15% to 20% a few years ago.

Jesus wept! Just send your kid to a normal school, ta da! Saved you more than 20%…
online schools, like in lock down? All to avoid state school?

‘What we need to avoid is higher earners living in a canton in Switzerland, Ireland, Dubai or Luxembourg with teens and working there remotely and using online schools because it no longer makes sense to stay in the U.K’

Why? Let them go. Anyone who does that just to save £ when they’re minted is probably the kind of arse hole this country could do without.
I’m a high earner, as is DP, and we both pay all the tax we’re supposed to, use the NHS and, the horror, send our kids to state schools.
Not everyone is looking to squirrel away their money and watch public services burn…

@Soigneur
"At the end of the day, I suspect that after all the whinging and foot-stamping most schools, and most of their customers, will suck it up - just as everyone did when the standard VAT rate increased from 15% to 20% a few years ago."

Yes not that I agree with the VAT being added, but I think if adding it on makes private education total unaffordable for people maybe they weren't really in a position to be using in the first place?

Splitting hairs, but actually the VAT rate went from 15% back up to 17.5%, and then was later raised from 17.5% to 20%. So fairly small incremental increases.

Whereas now parents are looking at an increase from 0% to 20%, on top of the usual annual fee increases. Which will make a massive difference to some families, how could it not when you might be looking at a 30% increase in a year.

But yes, I do agree that some PPs have not been helping their arguments with some of the claims that they are making! The super rich, who might conceivably have the means to move to Switzerland or wherever, will not be hugely affected by VAT on fees and will just pay up.

The middle classes will either struggle on, or remove their children at natural entry points, or decide not to send their children in the first place. And we don't know how many will do what until it happens. Which is the gamble that Labour are taking.

online schools, like in lock down?

No not like in lockdown. Proper online schooling that had been in place for years before lockdown and a tried and tested model. Not a few bits of work set by a teacher and ten minutes of talk which no one bothers to turn up to.

and, the horror, send our kids to state schools

I am glad you have a successful state school near you that you have been able to access and at which your kids are adequately supported.

“The super rich, who might conceivably have the means to move to Switzerland or wherever, will not be hugely affected by VAT on fees and will just pay up. “

You are misunderstanding. The super rich will just pay up because it won’t affect them. It is the internationally mobile middle class that won’t just pay up and as they occupy a lot of jobs that pay into the system it could have a material effect. The most screwed over people are the ones who do not inherit but have high paying jobs, the self made lot basically. And as they are hugely aspirational of course they will look at alternatives, if they can. A lot of them live in London and are international and have come to uni here but have 2nd and sometimes even 3rd passports.
People will say who cares there will be others to replace them. I hope so, but we have a lot of this internationally mobile middle class elite in my work place so I am not so sure and most of them use private schools.

I'm not missing the point, I just don't think that there are all that many internationally-mobile middle class families, really. Particularly outside of London.

Plenty of people will not have jobs where they can easily move abroad, especially if language is a barrier. If you are an accountant for a UK company, for example, how easy really do you think it would be to find an equivalent level job in a foreign country and company, and that's not even considering the different accounting rules and regulations that you'd have to get to grips with.

We are theoretically internationally-mobile, as DH could probably get a transfer to his US or Singapore office. Or Qatar(!)

But whether we would actually want to uproot our whole family and move abroad, rather than suck up the VAT, is another thing. I'm not sure I can see too many people choosing that option - at least not in the circle of parents I know who have children at various indies (South London).

Yes, paying school fees, a well known way of squirrelling away money. Compared to using schools paid for by taxpayers, which is generosity itself

I am only guessing, of course, but @Quatty are your DC at a top comp in a nice area? Because high earners aren't known for picking the tougher end of the state sector.

@RockaLock - 22k per child plus Vat for 2 kids and a million pound for a 3bed semi now just won’t be affordable for 2 professional accountants now in their early thirties. So there is no long term sustainability there. I am sure those already in and with a house and substantial equity will “suck it” up but there won’t be significant appetite in the younger years to make these schools viable long term so you have to consider the impact and how these schools will deal with that.

@Araminta1003 your “internationally mobile middle class elite” with their multiple passports, are a minuscule minority. In the grand scale of things, they simply don’t matter. I say this as someone with 2 passports, 3 languages, and working at the highly employable end of tech.

A minuscule minority? They’re really not. You don’t need multiple passports to work abroad. We’ve worked abroad previously, as have many of our friends and family. 2 close friends/family of ours have moved abroad in just the last month.

I'm not sure why you are arguing about this point with me. I'm pretty sure I said in my post that some middle class parents would choose not to even send their children private in the first place!

So in that, I am in agreement with you

But my point was mainly about the claims of hordes of families moving abroad just because of VAT on school fees, and I still don't think that will happen on a large scale. But we can agree to disagree on that, it's all just part of the debate, surely.