Those worried about VAT on private schools: is this a deal you’d consider?

[user1477391263]

https://cps.org.uk/media/post/2023/fund-private-school-places-for-looked-after-children-urges-leading-tory/

A small-scale scheme has been going for a while in which (small numbers of) children in care are offered places at private boarding schools, at taxpayer expense. Yes, the person supporting the scheme and its expansion is a Tory MP - but the results are impressive and may be worth thinking about.

You might think that “that sounds financially unsustainable” - yet, shockingly, per-pupil it actually works out a lot cheaper than the alternatives. Keeping a child-in-care in a normal residential school place costs six times as much as sending them to Eton (!). There has recently been a lot of discussion about this in the media.

If private boarding schools were offered a deal whereby they could avoid VAT if they were prepared to take on a few kids in care (one per class, let’s say?), would parents support this?

I don’t use private British schools (although my eldest does go to a private secondary in another country) so have no strong ideological leanings either for or against private education and have no particular dog in this fight - I am just genuinely interested in how parents would feel about this. It would be easier to let private schools off from VAT if there was a stronger sense that they were fulfilling a social purpose that was hard for other institutions to deliver at the same level.

surely the children still need a guardian? And a place to live during the school holidays ( whch are a quarter of the year at least)

Anyway the imposition of VAT is more for ideological reasons rather than financial ones

!?

I explained in my OP that I don’t live in the UK or use any kinds of schools here, so any changes in the law have no impact on me. I also have no particular ideological leaning towards state or private education, and have used a mixture of both for my own kids in the country where I live; I’ve seen both state and private schools work well (and poorly!).

My thinking was merely: there are a lot of in-care kids getting dire outcomes despite huge sums of money being spent; if a certain number of them (even just a small %) were able to get much better outcomes and actually at very reasonable expense, this could potentially be something that should be expanded; and given that there is a lot of concern about the VAT thing among the private sector right now, that could create some useful leverage for getting this done.

The exemption of VAT for private schools has often rested on some sort of argument of creating a social benefit of some sort, and to be honest “Well, we let the local state school kids use our tennis courts!”etc isn’t all that impressive. But something like this would be genuinely impressive, and an expanded scheme based on concrete data of improved outcomes were presented, I for one would be prepared to stand up and say that VAT should be exempted on those grounds, not least because it would be the sort of service that the public sector just doesn’t seem capable of providing. After all, the public sector could just fund better tennis courts for state schools. But when it comes to looked-after kids, the public sector hasn’t done a good job even when huge amounts of money have been spent, and there is some evidence that privately run boarding schools do do a better job with less money.

Boarding school is pretty awful, I don't think it's fair to inflict it really just because it is cheaper.

The staff have no specialist knowledge to support these children, the other pupils will potentially not be receptive and the ethos in many boarding schools is really unhealthy.

I wouldn't send mine if you paid me, so I don't think it's good enough for looked after children.

The exemption of VAT for private schools has often rested on some sort of argument of creating a social benefit of some sort, and to be honest “Well, we let the local state school kids use our tennis courts!”etc isn’t all that impressive

Education is exempt from VAT because as a society we believe that education helps a person to improve themselves: and the personal growth of any member of society benefits society as a whole.

Your DC's piano lessons and French club only directly benefit your own DC. But they are still exempt from VAT because they educate your DC, help them to grow as a person, and hence improve society.

No "free" piano lessons for other children who can't afford them (paid for out of your fees to the music teacher) is necessary in order for society to recognise that the educational benefit to your DC is worth exempting the lesson fee from VAT.

It's exactly the same with private school fees.

No tennis court use for other schools is needed, nor commitment to educate other children for free. ( An educational charity may need to show a wider social benefit, but VAT has nothing to do with being charity. Not all private schools are charities, and not all educational charities are schools)

No benefit to anyone other than the member of society being educated - and hence improving society that tiny bit - is necessary for the cost of the education to be exempt from VAT.

That's the case across the whole EU. No country in the EU is permitted to put a sales tax on education. That's why this change in the law is only possible since Brexit.

But Labour really hate private education. They have tried all sorts of ways to damage and destroy it. And they've managed to create this twisted narrative that it's somehow worse for me to spend my taxed income on helping my daughter to grow as a person through education than to take her on a foreign holiday. And so I should be forced to hand over even more of my income (already taxed through income tax, like everyone else) to the government than someone who spends their money on foreign holidays. It's punitive and it's wrong.

Great post @strawberrybubblegum .

On the original question, no, boarding school isnt awful - it doesn't suit everyone, of course, but lots of young people love it.

Boarding staff are of course trained to deal with pastoral childhood problems. What do you think they do all day?! Children in boarding have the same issues as children living at home - the same issues around mental health, friendships, etc. Boarding staff are extremely experienced at dealing with run of the mill and sometimes much less run of the mill issues (they've generally dealt with these things much more frequently than most parents have).

Of course, a lot of young people in care have trauma at another level, which would be too difficult to manage in a boarding environment - but not all. As for holidays, the foundation that runs this scheme works with the school to make sure that there arrangements and support in place. That might be going home (if a child isn't fully in care) or it might be a foster arrangement, with the school still involved.

The numbers making use of this scheme are never going to ge massive, because the circumstances have to be right. But when it works, it works brilliantly.

Totally agree with your post! And on a slightly different tangent, what are peoples thoughts on means tested contributions from parents who use state schools?

It is beyond me how absolutely NO ONE is talking about means testing parents of state school children and having those who are able, give a small financial contribution to the school on a yearly or termly basis! Just like is done in other properly functioning countries where people don’t assume they deserve education for free! Why is it that those who are already paying for their children’s education have to pay up?! I have friends who earn the same as we do, send their children to state schools and blow an insane amount of money on ridiculously expensive holidays … all well and good, but these people are more than able to contribute to improving their own children’s schooling don’t you think?

I mentioned something similar a few threads ago and was told kids in care have too specific needs - apparently Bernardo's are more caring than boarding schools, who knew! I think it's hard when you hear on Womans Hour and in the news stories like this https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/28/vulnerable-teenagers-dumped-and-abandoned-in-hotels-by-councils-in-england coming at such great expense, yet apparently boarding schools couldn't possibly be better.

What a stupid idea! I hardly know where to start. Do you really think a boarding institutional upbringing with a load of hoorah Henrys is the right place for an emotionally damaged 11 year old?

Better than being dumped in a hotel and having to fend for themselves.

Plenty of kids at boarding schools have emotional and SEN needs and certainly most of them are not "hoorah Henrys" - largely far less judgemental than your post not least because they all have to get along together.

Is it right to use disadvantaged children to benefit of privileged ones? No.

Looked-after children can already be placed in private schools if SS think that is the best arrangement for them. It doesn't happen very often though.

This won't fly as a VAT avoidance scheme.

Great thread that really exposes the lie of "private schools are charities".

If private schools (and the families that use them) want to benefit from the financial incentives of being a charity, they should be happy to provide places to the most disadvantaged that can really benefit.

The reality of course is many parents pay to keep their children away from disadvantaged children so wouldn't tolerate it.

I think it's a great idea and I think private schools should take the sort of disadvantaged children struggling with large class sizes and lack of one to one attention in the state system.

If the school fits the child’s needs and aptitude, of course! I’d like to see an expansion of private provision free at the point of use.

Assisted place schemes, vouchers, all of it.

Erm, never heard of full bursaries? Quite a few in ours.

I'm a private school mum and would love this - as I said upthread.

That just shows your prejudice. But as that's what you think there's little point in arguing. Some posters have explained that they have seen evidence that this can work - as have I - but if that's what you think, that's what you think.

Full bursaries are not for the riff raff.

They are fir naice MC children who have fallen on Hard Times.

Oh really? I would love to see your evidence of this. Certainly not what I've experienced by any stretch.

There are 100,000 children in care and 500 boarding schools OP. Let's say every school took 10. It would still be a drop in the ocean and would make no material difference. I don't see anyone being persuaded that this would be a good alternative to raising significant income through applying VAT to private school fees.

I was a Day pupil at a private Boarding school in the 80's and we had some kids there who had difficult family circumstances that were paid for my their local LEA. A couple went home at weekends but not all.
My sons Private Day school has several DC from Ukraine there, I don't know all the circumstances but according to DD (who is friends with some of them) they don't pay.
So perhaps this already goes on?

See the post below this for an example of why it won't happen