Would most people choose private education if they could afford it

[mids2019]

My children go to reasonable state schools but especially from my older daughter I keep hearing about a succession of cover teachers and general malaise in the school system (governments fault not the schools)

That for me asking the question would most people choose private education if affordable in their heart of hearts or are there egalitarian parents who would still choose state on ideological grounds?

I am in two minds about this but certainly the private sector locally is attracting quite a few.

@Circe7 @Chisquared I don’t seem to have made my point very well.

My point isn’t about the Oxford admissions process, how well mannered people are at Oxford, or whether 17 year olds choose their own universities. My point is that parental principles on diversity don’t extend to universities. I find that hypocritical.

You ought to lay off using the word hysterical, too, when talking to women. @Couchant

No, private isn’t better and the teachers aren’t, by rule, better either. They also don’t need to be qualified teachers in private.

@zigzag716746zigzag
Yes - I guess it’s a distinction between parental resources and institutional resources.

Oxbridge spends more per student in money and time and access to educational opportunities such as elite academics than most universities.

Some parents spend more than others on education in money but also in time.

Those opposed to private schools tend not to like parental money conferring privilege but are ok with parental time or institutional resources conferring privilege. I suppose the theory is that anyone can benefit from the institution.

By this logic it’s ok to give up an income or part of an income so that you can spend time helping your kids with homework etc. but not to pay a school to do that for you.

Of course innate agility, which is also closely related to who your parents are plus some luck, can also give privilege but most people seem to be ok with that.

we could technically afford private school, though we would have a tighter budget. It’s always been there as a backup. Our state school is excellent though. I mean truly excellent. The opportunities dd has at her local secondary do not exist at any of the private schools in the region.

But university choice is determined by the child/teen isn’t it? My parents certainly didn’t have a say in where I applied for uni.

What ‘privilege’ does he imagine it confers? I certainly enjoyed my years there — the teaching was often brilliant, the libraries exceptional to the point where I used to reel out of the Bodleian drunk with the excitement that anything I wanted to read was available, and it was a privilege to live somewhere beautiful — but you end up with a degree and need to set about making a living just like anyone else. A few of my intake went on to be powerful and famous, but most of us lead perfectly ordinary lives.

There may be some hysterical projection.

There is also plenty of perfectly sound argument and experience for why private schooling is not a bad thing and how lots of objectors do not live their principles, just parade them. Not you.

As to Oxford being “just a university”, I can’t find any stats for Oxbridge or RG entry from selective v comp v private. But this is instructive (from an exec summary of a 2021 HoC research paper, Oxbridge ‘elitism’):

”While the proportion of entrants from the state sector has increased, students from a relatively small number of independent schools, state grammar schools and sixth form colleges make up a substantial proportion of entrants. Students from ten schools/colleges make up around 10% of admissions at both universities. Half of entrants to both universities come from around 150 schools/colleges. Few if any students at the majority of schools and colleges apply to either Oxford or Cambridge.”

Half of Oxbridge comes from 150 schools and colleges. There are over 24,000 comprehensive schools in the UK. Oxford and Cambridge (and a few others) are clearly not institutions that are “just universities” and are highly unrepresentative of the demographics of university students generally. Not a bad thing, but they are generally socially and economically strongly biased. Which would presumably conflict with a parent’s belief in fairness and social equity.

(FWIW I do not believe for a minute that well-off anti-private parents generally don’t egg their children into Oxbridge application while they’re at school. Even if you won’t be doing that.)

I was in a state school until the age of 8 then private until 18.
I would never send my children to a private school. I hardly saw my parents because I was always at school (long school holidays don't make up for it.) I don't know anyone from my private school who went on to have a 'big' career - of my friendship group 2 work in low level local government positions, 1 does ironing, 1 is a teacher and 1 is a yoga instructor. Nothing wrong with those careers but I think the amount of money spent on our education was a complete waste.
I also have no school friends locally as most travelled from further afield or were boarders from overseas. I always find that quite sad.

No, many of my friends went to private school and every single one of them has had life long mental health issues ranging from anorexia, eating disorders, to difficult relationships with men.

I don't know how to word this any other way but they have are all somewhat 'messed up' mentally. (One of my friends own words) and they all put this down to either private school apart from one, who had a difficult childhood but private school exacerbated her mental health conditions.

No. I don't think it would suit my children at all.

They don’t need to be qualified in state either

There’s a big difference between private schools and public schools.

Private schools teachers might not need to be qualified teachers but have a look at the school’s website or ask the school for details of their training and qualifications. At good schools they’re going to be qualified teachers. I know that at the school I went to all the teachers had degrees in the subject they taught and then acquired teaching qualifications. They were listed after their names in the school directory along with the universities they attended.

@Couchant , I can only assume you are being disingenuous if you think attending Oxbridge doesn't confer privilege.

It’s not an ‘privilege’ as that implies it’s something you are not entitled to . It’s an ‘advantage’ gained from hard work , particularly in the case of the previous poster who themselves came from a disadvantaged backgrounds. Regardless of background gaining a degree from Oxford involves hard work . If you have GCSEs then in terms of employment you have an advantage over someone without GCSEs it doesn’t mean you are privileged.

there is a huge amount of inverted snobbery on this thread . In the one hand people are keen for access to academic institutions to be widened , but once they are there people are derided because of their so called ‘privilege’ So typical of England , tall poppy syndrome .

I am not being snobby at all - I am just perplexed that anyone could attend Oxford but assert that it has no - if you want to use the word 'advantage' then ok - advantages.

I am in favour of excellence and I believe in meritocracy, and I think brainy people need suitable stretch and challenge in education.

No, many of my friends went to private school and every single one of them has had life long mental health issues ranging from anorexia, eating disorders, to difficult relationships with men.

This will be due to their parents, rather than the schools, surely? Apart from anything, many rich parents get rid of their children when they send them to boarding schools, implying poor parent-child relationships. And often, parents that are 'cash rich, time poor' throw money at their kids instead of investing in the relationship connection craved by children. It's no wonder it damages the children.

I can’t find any stats for Oxbridge or RG entry from selective v comp v private.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying here you go (Exeter only highlighted as this extract used on another thread)

It's shown in the Sunday Times uni guide. I'd imagine they get it from the HESA tables, a lot of the latter update during January so the latest year's figs likely out quite soon, although I wouldn't except any great movement.

@Circe7 and @WhatsTheUseOfWorrying - absolutely excellent points.

I guess if we are talking about elite universities one thing that I feel is that the media do want to pick up on those compelling narratives of people overcoming the odds to achieve academic success e.g.care leavers getting to Oxford. While these stories are inspiring they are not representative and average or below average comps in reality don't send many to Oxbridge. I don't quite but into the opinion that if you're intelligent you will fly anywhere; you may but there are certainly major hurdles.

I think the stats support this in that there is still a disproportionate number from private schools entering elite universities (I do accept some of these schools are highly selective).

If you're child has Oxbridge potential do you send them to an inner city community school? This is a question , I don't really have an answer. However my parents were told by a quite honest teacher that I was reasonably intelligent and wouldn't thrive at what was then a comprehensive in a deprived ex mining community and I would be better off elesewhere.

Many thanks.

If you'd asked me a few years ago, I'd have posted all the things being spewed out here about inequality, state being better etc.

However now, I have a 9 year old DS struggling in a class bursting at the seams with behavioural and SEN issues. He likely has dyslexia but it hasn't been noticed as his needs and so much less than others in his class. We're about to pay £400 for an assessment rather than wait the 2 years we'd otherwise have to wait. This is in a very good state primary. He's moving to private school in August. DD will follow in 5 years. It will be quite a stretch for us.

A friend has the same ideological views as a lot of people on here and her DD with autism now refuses to go to her state secondary school. Rather than paying for private which she could afford, she's accepting her daughter may just not get qualifications or work and will buy her a property. To me this is madness and presumably her stance is shared by a lot on here. Personally I'd rather use the money to educate my DC and prepare them for life in the best way I can.

It is madness, if based on some sort of ideological stance. Autistic people who are reasonably high functioning, though facing certain challenges, are perfectly capable of learning skills and knowledge which would allow them to live a relatively independent life.

If you're child has Oxbridge potential do you send them to an inner city community school?

Yes, that is exactly what we did.

Had there then been issues or problems that meant their ability to thrive went off the rails (unhappiness, failure to keep up with academic potential etc) we would have been pragmatic and used the economic leeway we are lucky to have to have addressed it.

What we didn’t do was decide in advance that the demographic / overall average attainment/ being comprehensive would be of detriment to our individual kids.

That is basically an admission that you would have given your child’s education a leg up financially, but without the perceived stigma of an openly private education. Just a (potential) surreptitious private education.

Of course it would also all depend on what “inner city community school” means here.

Personally I find the state school but tutoring crowd the most annoying . We have neighbours who are very much ‘holier than thou ‘ about independent education. Their children have had tutors pretty much all the way through and for all three subjects at A level , they also do the very expensive revision courses run by the independent schools/crammars and also went on the Oxbridge prep courses . I have no problem with them having any of these things but don’t then lecture me about the evils of independent schools, at least it’s clear as day where my dc went to school rather than claiming to be state educated but actually not .