Need advice about Irish secondary education for a talented child

[Biped231]

We live in the UK and my ds is in year 6. He passed his grammar school exam, we are expecting an offer from a very good school. He was also identified as a talented student in science, he is very bright academically.

Very sadly we lost my husband, my son's father six months ago and he is buried in Dublin now. In order to be close to him and to have family and more friends to support the two of us, we started to think about moving back to Dublin. However we know there are no grammar schools there and we will have to go with the local secondary school as far as I understand. There is a centre for talented children but that is all I could find online and they seemed to look for the top 5%, I suspect my son would make it there.

Is there anybody who knows if there is any support for kids who are advanced in some areas in secondary schools in Ireland?
Do you think we would better stay put where we are and go with the grammar school he has won access to?

Thank you and happy New Year to everyone!

I can’t answer your question on gifted children but you won’t have to go with the closest school. You can put your name down for whatever schools you want / many will take from certain feeder primary schools first or closest areas but then they will often have spaces that they offer beyond this. I don’t think schools can choose kids on ability like that - so you might not find a school where everyone has high ability but you could find one with a good academic record. The Irish times have the progression rate of every school to third level - not a perfect measure. I can’t link to it but give it a google

Thank you very much mollyfolk. Your message made things a bit clearer in my mind. I presumed being in the school"s catchment area is a must unless you chose a fee paying school. And thank you for the progression rate list idea. I will check it now.

Any secondary school will have their admissions policy somewhere on their website so you can see how places are allocated on application. You will also likely find details of subjects and extra curriculars offered at junior and leaving cycle so you can see if they will suit your son.

The other thing to bear in mind is that kids start secondary later in Ireland. There are 8 years of primary, with most starting school at 5 and secondary at 13. I'm not sure what UK year 6 is but you might be looking at putting him in to a primary school for a year or two before starting secondary. That would give you a chance to suss out schools that suit.

Re the centre for talented youth, there is as far as I can recall, another programme. I can't remember if it's harder or easier to get in to though (mine are all adults and while two were eligible they had sporting commitments so never availed of the programme). It may also only be primary school. Sorry to be so vague.

You might also need to be cognisant of the rule for exemption from Irish language as it is not automatic -

Students moving from abroad

Students coming to live in Ireland from abroad may get an exemption if:

• A child is enrolling for the first time after completed a full course of primary education outside the State, and did not have the opportunity to study Irish
• A child aged 12 or over who received their education outside the State for at least 3 consecutive years, and did not have the opportunity to study Irish
• A child of a foreign diplomatic or consular representative in Ireland (primary schools only)

It may well not be appropriate for your situation, but private schools in Ireland are significantly cheaper than in the uk, and most have bursaries too (most are state subsidised and more akin to grammars).
Also, given the loss and upheaval would be good to choose a school based on the support and pastoral care, ethos rather than academic potential. A clever kid can get good grades anywhere, but the more pushy schools can have a very competitive and therefore mean streak so be careful to choose the best school for him.
And yes, as pp mentioned, if you move in the summer he should go into 6th class in primary which is the same age as yr 7

I grew up in Ireland, we all did a test at the end of 6th class (aged 12/13) in the secondary school of our choice. We were set in forms on the 1st day of secondary school. I would say the 1st and 2nd forms were similar to a grammar school level. The school had very high expectations for us.

My son attended a grammar school in England and was in the top sets , he went on to study medicine. My nephew was in the top form at his school in Ireland and also went on to study medicine.The education system in Ireland is very good, I'm.sure that your son will reach his potential.

I'm am so sorry to hear of the loss of your husband. Best of luck with your decision.xx

I would second this recommendation, especially as he will be getting to grips with a completely new curriculum, expectations around homework etc.

Thank you very much, everyone.

@PuneorPlayonWords and @mollyfolk thank you for the tips. I will make a list of schools that, I think, will be suitable for my ds and check their websites for especially for leaving cycle and pastoral care that I really did not think of as we have been blessed with in his current school, did not have to worry about it for a second. Especially because his school was aware and with us during the whole difficult months. Thanks for reminding me about it @allgrownupnow and @CliffsofMohair .

@OchonAgusOchonOh , you are so right. He is finishing primary school this year and if we move to Ireland he will have to start from the last year of primary school which is fine with me but I am sure he won't be okay with it. Also if he will start 6th class in September there, he will have to do the finishing exams all over again and will have to start learning Irish for only a year as @CliffsofMohair kindly mentioned.

@Bettercall , my late husband used to tell us that he was in the 1st form in secondary school but we never got the idea completely :) Thank you for explaining. Do you think it is still the same? Very encouraging to hear about it. We can always think about private schools, they seem to be significantly cheaper than in the UK as well.

I have started to think, the best way of action is to let my son start the grammar school here rather than kind of repeating the last year of primary school, starting Irish at the last possible year and taking some tests all over again (he took the 11+ this year and in May he is taking his SATs) which will make him sad. Then over the next year, we see how we are doing and if we still think we'd better with family and friends (probably I will), we can move to Dublin and start directly a secondary school which will lead to a smoother transition.

Thank you for showing me all the ups and downs in our particular situation. I definitely think that we have a good chance to find a well suited school and try maybe the Centre for Talented Youth and try to find the other programme @OchonAgusOchonOh mentioned.

We both have a much clearer head now. Thank you so much.

@Biped231 we don’t have any finishing exams. Some post primary schools will assess on entry but there is no equivalent of Year 6 SATS or 11 plus.
re Irish exemption, if he qualifies when he joins the school he won’t have to study it either for 6th class or beyond.

To be honest I would think about a 6th class entry to allow him settle into the system before post primary if that was an option.

Re doing 6th class here - there are no finishing exams for primary. Some secondary schools have entrance exams. They tend to be more aptitude tests rather than serious exams though.

The one advantage of doing 6th class is that many secondary schools have feeder primary schools that get priority so getting a place in one of the feeders gives him a much better chance of getting in to your secondary of choice. Depending on demand, there may not be places available for anyone outside the feeders. You generally put the child's name down in 6th class but some schools may be different. I would see if any of your preferred schools take names earlier and put his name down now. You may have to pay a deposit. Some schools will return it if you withdraw in advance. I think if you don't get a place they will refund.

Re streams - not all schools do that, particularly in first year. The school my dc went to (not in Dublin) did all mixed classes for first year. There was some level of streaming from second year on. So for example, Maths, English and Irish are divided into higher and ordinary level but then the higher level classes were streamed. Other subjects were just streamed into higher/ordinary level.

I noticed I was a bit quick to think I had a clear view :)

I thought going to primary school for one more year could be very frustrating for ds as he gets bored in classes and he was promised by his teachers that he could do more when he moves to a secondary school.
Then again, you are all very right about the advantages of moving before starting secondary school, especially because my presumptions (probably caused by oversensitivity and fear now :)) about finishing exams and having to study Irish only for a year are both wrong.

Thanks so so much for your help. One last question if I may: do schools have open days in general?
It's time for a deeper school research for me, I think :)
Thanks a lot.

Are you committed to Ireland as in the republic? As Northern Ireland has outstanding grammar schools that follow the same system as the rest of the UK. Obviously family and friends will likely draw you back to Dublin, but just letting you know another option.

I am sorry for your loss.

Remember your son will have significant ground to make up in the curriculum e.g. history, geography, and other Irish social areas. If possible I would recommend he starts in 6th as this will let you find out about the secondary school situation, let him make some friends and have the transition in a less challenging school year.

Whilst I appreciate concerns about learning Gaelige certain professions require it e.g. Garda, teacher etc. I know the odds are low but if he is bright he should pick it up and it will help him with other languages in secondary.

Yes, they usually have an open day or open evening.

You can have your son assessed by the Centre for Talented Youth based in Dublin City University for a nominal fee of 50 euro.

If he passes the assessment he will be invited to attend Saturday/ holiday courses in the University. They offer a wide range of subjects aimed at very bright students.

Best of luck with the move.

Second the recommendations for the Centre for Talented Youth, they do great work. Your son may also be interested in the Young Scientist of the Year competition if he’s been identified as having an aptitude. Some schools are really into it and provide a lot of support, so may be worth asking if it’s something a particular school supports/has a track record in.

He won't be required to do Irish in 6th class as he has had the majority of his primary education outside of Ireland. My older two were not required to do it when we moved back, the youngest did however, but he was starting in 2nd class, so his cohort only had a very basic knowledge anyway. Do note that if he wanted to be a teacher he would need Irish, but other than that I don't think anything else requires it.

I wouldn't worry too much about curriculum differences - the junior cert cycle is quite independent of the primary school system in terms of all topics will being covered from the start, rather than continued from primary level, and certainly if he's bright, he will be fine in catching up on stuff he is not familiar with in terms of history and social studies.

Best of luck with it all, and I hope you both thrive in Ireland.

@BFG2023 the rules changed 22/23, I'd the child is under 12 they will need to study and indeed most primaries would encourage it given the increase demand for the language.

"child aged 12 or over who received their education outside the State for at least 3 consecutive years, and did not have the opportunity to study Irish"

I wouldn't worry about having to do Irish for one year. If he's bright he'll be fine.

@Marblessolveeverything My reading of the OP is the child will have completed his primary education outside of Ireland (YR 6 is the last primary year in England) by the time they move, so he should be eligible to apply for the exemption.

The one advantage of doing 6th class is that many secondary schools have feeder primary schools that get priority so getting a place in one of the feeders gives him a much better chance of getting in to your secondary of choice. Depending on demand, there may not be places available for anyone outside the feeders.

This is an important consideration.

Unlike the UK ( I think?) in most areas of Ireland you need to apply to each school you're interested in separately, whether fee-paying or not.

Open nights for schools are usually in September or early October and applications to schools need to be made sometime in October usually. The exact dates vary a bit by school, it's always mid October where I am. So early in 6th class is the time for applications to secondary school. Students are usually approaching their 13th birthday or already 13 when they start secondary here these days. My DC were both 13.

Parent and grandparent attendance at a school is also taken into account in the allocation of school places (up to a certain percentage of applicants) if this is relevant to your situation.

My dc weren't streamed in first year, though they did sit a CAT test some months before entry. They were streamed in second year but for some subjects only.

I am also so very sorry for your loss.

@BFG2023 out school interpretation has relied on the age of the child.

One other thing to bear in mind is that in the cities, many of the secondary schools are still single sex.