would this be completely mad?

[corian123]

Namechanged. Please be kind because this is a situation I didn't expect to be in - exploring options and feeling very stressed right now.

My DD is in year 7 at a very competitive independent. She has been the same school since reception (they have new intakes at 7plus and 11plus) - it's a wonderful school, she has great friends, she is very academic and does brilliantly there etc.

For reasons I won't bore everyone with, money is becoming an issue and we are unlikely to be able to manage once VAT is added to fees (not a case of 'if' but 'when'). The bursar has been very sympathetic, but various factors mean any type of bursary or discount isn't available for us.

One thing they have kindly offered is that if we felt we had no choice but to withdraw DD for a period of time, she has an open door to come back...

Sixth form state options are excellent, so going state for sixth form is a no brainer is a route we will explore - but that is a long time away...Pre-GCSE local option is good, but not great - I know families at the school and it's certainly fine, but the GCSE results are understandably not a patch on her current school.

Would it be utterly crazy if DD were to attend the local state school for years 8 and 9, and then return to her current school for years 10 and 11?! She is socially quite robust, the kind of child who makes friends wherever she goes - however, it would be quite a change and I worry it would be so disruptive. She also has extremely close friends at her current school who she would miss (but as they all live locally I am sure she would still see them).

Thoughts?

Look into the state option in more detail. 45% 7-9 for a non-selective school excellent to be frank. Look at the offer for the academic students - no they won’t be pushing everyone through triple science because it’s non-selective. What other opportunities do they have? What’s the progress like for the higher attainers? Do they have students getting all 8s and 9s? (Check newsletters and news press releases.) It’s easy to get suckered into the competitiveness of a very academic school, but the reality is most children go to a state school and any school that is getting 45% of a non-selective intake an A in old money is likely to be more than fine! Go round an look at it during a normal day and see what it’s like.

Moving for years 8 & 9 and then back for GCSE isn’t a great idea. Most of the core subjects will have started GCSE work or prepping for it and even the non-core subjects will be aiming at different exam boards. Friends will have changed and no doubt she’ll place herself under pressure to try and catch up.

However, VAT if it does come isn’t likely to be for another few years. If there’s not an election until Autumn 2024, then the legislation has to get through and then implemented. You may escape or only have a year or two’s worth to find. But if independent is starting to be a struggle, then you may be better off moving rather than face financial pressure.

You're acting as if your daughter's results will be determined by the probability of a child in that school getting a particular grade. It's not. If she is very academic, then she will be in the top sets (or working at the top end in subjects taught mixed ability), and will definitely be in the 45% getting 7-9 grades, and probably in the smaller percentage getting 8/9s. It doesn't matter if only one science set are doing separate sciences, because what the other sets are doing has no bearing on your daughter.

45% 7-9 grades (which you should remember is A/A in old money) suggests a decent number of kids getting high grades. My rule of thumb was "is there an entire set's worth getting A/A in the core subjects?" If so, then there is a peer group working at that level, and staff capable of teaching them to that standard.

Keep an open mind about GCSE. If she's getting on well at the state school, there's no need to move her back, and she may well have made new friends that she doesn't want to lose. You might well do better to supplement with a tutor for the odd subject than have all the disruption (and cost) of changing school again.

One other point. A good state school may well have a waiting list. You won't be able to just choose when you move.
So you may need to suck up losing up to 2 terms fees (if space comes in on the first day of term) when you move.

@corian123
Bear in mind when you're looking at the comprehensive's results that you're not comparing like with like. You need to look at the results of the high achievers- which you may well find are similar to your current school. Not meaning to teach you to suck eggs-sorry!

Look at the state in more detail.

If they heavily set them she may well spend most of her time with a hard working high achieving cohort.

GCSEs options can be tricky as some classes can be very small.

You'd want a state school that offers triple science (not all do) and also look at the gcse options. In particular languages at state school can be very limited.

I would add in tutoring can really add up, it can be expensive so factor that in when looking at costs. I think also at that age it is not just her education that you need to consider but her friendships which will be hugely impacted if you move and then move back. I would also look at exam boards, do both schools do the same as if they do not this would be an added complication. at ds school they start the full GCSE curriculum before easter of year 9, so you need to be clear what that would mean if you mover her again.

As others have said, she’ll get very similar results at the state as she would at the indie if she is that bright.

That said, I don’t thing the VAT is coming in for a good while (as it will probably be phased in and will be challenged in the courts anyway), and when it does it won’t be 20% because the schools will also be able to CLAIM VAT too, so their costs will drop slightly. It will be more like 15% or slightly less.

You really can’t find it though? Do neither you nor your partner have any career progression on the cards over the next 5 years? Or the capacity to increase your earnings and/or reduce your outgoings? Family help? What do you spend on family holidays and cars every year? Where can you make savings? We took £60 a week off our food bill by switching from Waitrose to Tesco, which is £3k, for instance.

We do without a LOT to keep our kids in their independent school. Nothing wrong with an ancient car and Aldi if it keeps your daughter in the best education you can provide for her.

Your plan is too complicated and you are not prioritising your dd’s happiness or her need for consistency. Keep her where she is for GCSE send her to state for 6th form, where she will continue to flourish and probably join a lot of her classmates, but don’t chop back and forth.

"We do without a LOT to keep our kids in their independent school. Nothing wrong with an ancient car and Aldi if it keeps your daughter in the best education you can provide for her."

Oh, purhlease!!

@Octavia64 "You'd want a state school that offers triple science (not all do)"

Very many don't-and it only appears to be a big deal on Mumsnet....

DS went to an utterly dire state school I think the rate that children achieved decent grades was as low as 25%. We are not morning people and neither is DS so to bus him to a decent school would have made him miserable. We both commuted in the opposite direction so couldn’t drop him off. He achieved all top grades in his GCSE and A levels. DH attended one of the best public schools in the UK and I attended an awful state school, had a couple of genuine riots when I was a pupil there. We met as junior bright young things working in the same place. We joke it was very much an ‘All roads lead to Rome” scenario but it cost his parents a fortune, he would have done well anywhere.

I imagine it’s quite a big deal if you want to go on to study Medicine.

It's really not

It really really isn't.

My school
Didn't do triple science.

3 of my schoolfriends are doctors

It would be hard for her to miss yr9 as there is often early prep for GCSEs. Going for just year 8 seems disruptive. I think you just need to decide if you can afford to keep her in. If you are looking at state schools I would look beyond the GCSE results. The school she goes to now is bound to out do any non selective school. It would be a pretty terrible school if it selects it pupils by ability and got worse results!

@CurlewKate Well what’s wrong with that? The OP is worried about being able to afford something that is important to her, and it is also important to a lot of people, some of whom are on very very high salaries, while others might rely heavily on bursaries and family help. But she doesn’t say what savings she is trying to make before implementing a pretty convoluted plan. We all have different ideas of what is reasonable, and she might well be making large car payments every month that would easily offset the increase or she might have a very stringent budget in place with no wiggle room at all.

Do you really think the best preparation for a career in medicine will be to spend your formative years mixing only with those whose parents can afford private school fees? Most successful med school applicants are from state schools. If she's a hard worker, she'll do great at a comp. Just make sure she's at a state sixth form that has a good track record for getting med school places - or start reading the medicine threads on the higher ed board relatively early if there's not going to be much support from school.

Speaking as someone who's had kids at both private and state, private fees are very rarely worth the expense, and definitely not if the alternative is a state school that gets a decent proportion of 7-9 grades as you say your local one does.

And yes, don't need to do triple science to become a doctor. Just need to have an A level in Chemistry, which is perfectly doable with double science and a good work ethic.

No way would I make my child do this, I dont care what school is what, if the child chose too fine but the upheaval sounds terrible

If she is genuinely that academic, she will do well wherever and not 'need' private school to excel.

Also, it's a misconception that private school teachers are better than state... kind of like doctors (I'd pick NHS first, hands down). My kids are at private and my Y7 said the other day her Maths teacher said to 'add a zero' when multiplying by 10. It's not exactly advocating maths mastery 🤔

In terms of the classroom experience, private have more power to deal with disruptive kids, but even there it's not guaranteed. If she's bright she'll be in top sets in state and less likely to have to put up with the kids that don't want to be there. Plus as everyone has said, private weed out those who damage the results.

It does sound a bit mad, for all the reasons given. DS's (outstanding) state school starts GCSE courses in the final term of Y9. You also need to be in the school where you intend to take GCSEs in Y9 to ensure the best possibility of getting your choice of GCSE options (some options, including triple science are allocated on past performance).

@watcherintherye "I imagine it’s quite a big deal if you want to go on to study Medicine."

It absolutely isn't. None of the high schools in my area do triple science, and many kids go on to take 3 sciences at A level successfully.

I always see it said on these threads that bright children will do well anywhere. What if they are in a state school where many lessons are with cover supervisors with no knowledge of the subject because they can’t recruit teachers; or in the hall with other classes and one member of staff because they can’t get enough cover supervisors? Some classes have nearly 40 pupils, and the science is all classroom based because the labs are locked and unused as the teachers don’t feel that practical lessons are safe due to the pupils’ behaviour. That is the reality in my and other people’s children’s schools.

Sorry OP, I know that’s not what you are asking. Regarding that, I would say that if you have a good state school available, move to it with the plan of staying there but knowing at the back of your mind that if it really doesn’t work out, there is the possibility of moving back to the private school for GCSEs - although don’t say that to your daughter because it could discourage her from making an effort to settle.

@Utyses If the high achievers in the school don't do well then that's really something to worry about, I agree. Worth checking.

Sorry for radio silence. Thanks so much for the helpful suggestions and thoughts on here. DH and I had a big discussion last night and we are going to try our hardest to keep her there until sixth form which is a more natural exit point and less disruptive. It is going to be very difficult financially but we will find a way.

I slightly overestimated the state results here - that 45 percent of A grades was in a couple of subjects, definitely not across the board in all subjects, but it's a bit silly to compare results anyway as they are such different cohorts.

FWIW - and I don't want to turn this into a debate about private versus state - I don't think it's an absolute that 'if they are bright enough they'll do well anywhere.' If a school is understaffed and/or there's a higher proportion of more challenging pupils, there is a chance the more academic ones can be let down unfortunately. There's also the very real issue of budgets/cuts and the impact that can have on learning.

Of course, it could be that my dd would do equally as well in the state school as she does in private - and of course plenty of people from the state system study medicine! Just trying to work out what is best for her, given our choices and what she's like.