Rainbows- hostile leader, doesn't answer emails, how to move forward?

[Duchess338]

Hi, DD (5 almost 6) has been in Rainbows for about a year a half now. We moved about 8 months ago so she's in a new troop. She loved it where we lived before and she was shy to start with at the new troop but seemed to really get into it after a couple of times. Lately she's been having a real panic about being left there. She had made a friend there but the friend moved up to Brownies so she's starting from scratch with friends there again (she doesn't go to school with any of the girls there) so its understandable that shes having some seperation anxiety (also her age too) but i'm struggling to get any support from the troop leader.
She's incredibly abrupt with me whenever I try to talk to her about anything and sort of shuts me down. I'm not rude with her, I understand she's busy running this massive group... she's less rude with DH funnily enough so maybe she just doesnt like women? Im not taking it personally but it's getting in the way of trying to ease DD back into Rainbows- we're on the verge of pulling her out altogether.
At her old troop they were waiting for months and months for new rainbow bags and badge books so by the time we moved house DD didn't have one. She was never offered them at the new troop. I even volunteered at the previous group and it was still never explained to me what a badge book even is. I feel DD could have gotten so many more badges by now if we knew about this (I know, I could have done more due diligence but I just assume that when you join a new club these things are explained to you). DD had completed her Fruit And Veg Badge at the old troop but was still waiting on the badge when we left. It isn't logged on her girlguiding profile and the previous leader was very poorly so I feel bad to text her about a badge when shes going through something so serious, but this means DD will have to do it again.
She joined new troop 8 months ago and still wearing her old troops stripe (different town, different county!).
There are so many things happening that I could do with clarification on but our troop leader here doesn't answer any emails and when I talk to her face to face she's abrupt and defensive. DD was so distressed for a couple of sessions that I sat in on the next one and noticed the girls don't do much in the way of bonding, very much heads down individiual activities. Even then I wasn't able to get through to the leader. It felt very much like she was blaming me- "Well you didn't do such and such" and "She fine when she's here" and the rest of it. Im not blaming anyone but feel if im leaving DD with someone I should be able to have a basic conversation with them to map out a way forward that works for everyone.
Ideally im thinking DD could take a week off, work towards some badge stuff at home and then have an achievement to go back to, to get her excited about it again? But I have no idea how to do that because we don't have a badge book and can't get any response from the leader :/
It feels a real shame to just quit a club that she's loved so much in the past.
Thanks for any insights! x

Thats basically what everyone else does yes. If the kid start crying and hates it you just bin the activity. Your expectations are way too high.

Yes, that is what parents do.
I wouldn't expect someone who was kindly volunteeering their time for an hour a week to look after some strangers children, to also provide me with 121 updates about my dcs progress.
I'd ask dd. Did you enjoy it? Yes, great let's go next week. No? Ok, it's up to you then love, another try or sack it off?

The more I read of Guiding on Mumsnet the more I'm glad I had boys and they did Scouting! And that I became a leader.

I'd never have a problem with any parent checking in every week about how their child was getting on (in fact, we have a parent currently who usually does), or if they wanted to sit in on a session, or if they wanted to volunteer (yes please!)

It seems very rude not to tell you about badges. The Scout badges and requirements are online, and I sometimes remind parents and kids that some can be done at home and they can show us evidence and get the badge.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your attitude at all. I think you should move to Scouting, and hopefully have a warmer welcome at Beavers.

This

@arethereanyleftatall haha as if having one question about a badge book and raising one concern "my child is tearful today" is the same as needing 121 updates. Calm down lol.

She's 5, she doesn't know anyone else there and it's hard.

Stop sending her instead of making it the 'fault' of the leader.

And volunteering to the extent that you "don't even know what a badge book is" is in no way similar to running a group yourself so please don't compare your efforts to the leaders. That is not on.

Take your kid out, it's not working.

Errr that is exactly requiring one to one updates! I am perfectly calm just intrigued by your investment in rainbows badges - your kid is 4 !

You will be a nervous wreck by the time she’s doing a levels if you keep this up!

One of the things I have learned about parenting is that it's not the details that matter.

It's what you role model.

You sweating it over the small stuff will be providing a template for your child to do the same.

Take it back a notch.

Make a 'fruit and veg' badge at home and teach her that 'oh well' sometimes things don't go as planned and we roll with the punches.

Instead of role modelling this level of fretting, and sitting there observing and passing comment about 'heads down' etc.

It's not healthy and I promise your daughter's mental health will benefit from you teaching her the ability to not sweat the small stuff.

This ! You sound like you are massively overthinking this!

@whatweneedisweights nobody said its the leaders fault. I just haven't been able to advocate for DD with her because she shuts me down. Did you even read my post?

Was it really just one email and one question?

I think you come across as demanding and defensive in this post.
My daughter is extremely shy, goes to rainbows with no classmates and sobbed going into the first session, the leader said to me to go and that they’d look after her, I left and when I picked her up I asked my daughter how she’d got on.
I do the badges with her at home every so often and take photos and write things down to show the leader. I had no explanation of
how to do this. Most of the girls don’t do badges outside of the group.
there’s a lot of colouring, biscuit icing and running games but my daughter seems to enjoy it and that’s enough.
In over a year of attendance I have had no cause to email the volunteer leader. So respectfully I do think you mr expectations are probably a little high. Our leader has a full time job which she dashes from to do our group. I expect she’s not even had tea by the time she starts rainbows. They don’t need extra admin.

Where I live, there’s an expectation with any sort of volunteer-run setup that ALL parents have to take on SOME sort of role in the group (like, even if you are unable to get out much, they’ll have you make decorations for the next seasonal event or stuff envelopes or whatever). I’m starting to feel like maybe this kind of expectation would be helpful in the UK as well - I’m amazed by the number of people who don’t seem to understand how volunteer stuff works.

Hi all,
Thanks for your comments on this- positive and negative. Its been eye opening to see where reaching out for constructive advice can lead to.
To clarify I never blamed the leader for DDs struggles with the group, just said im struggling to talk to her about it. I also don't for a second underestimate the work the leader is doing for GG. I said in OP I understand shes a busy woman.
No wonder we no longer look to "the village" to help raise our families when asking for help leads to you being called a helicopter parent, annoying, bonkers etc etc 😂
Anyway, DH and I have been going through the thread and both agreed that GG clearly isn't the one for us. It seems a shame after a year and a half of good times but I'll be looking into Beavers soon, who cares if I've paid subs up until Christmas. You guys are right, DD is unhappy and the troop don't seem too bothered about that so that's our answer isn't it.
Cheers again!

Brownie leader here

It doesn't sound as though the Rainbow leader is handling things very well. Now, it may well be possible that she has other stuff going on in her life right now that you don't know about but obviously that doesn't help you and your daughter. It is however, very unfair for posters on this thread to be tarring all Girlguiding leaders with the same brush. The idea that moving to Squirrels/Beavers will be some sort of panacea is ridiculous. There are as many badly-run Scouting units as Girlguiding ones.

As a PP has said you can buy the badge book and go from there.

If speaking to the leader is tricky, you can speak to the District Commissioner or Division Commissioner.

With regard to the Fruit and Veg badge, the leader is correct that she needs to see some evidence of a badge being completed but in this case where a child has transferred, that could be waived. That said, badges cost money and I wouldn't be entirely delighted to be buying badges that should have been bought by another unit. My advice - just buy your daughter one from Ebay and sew it on.

My son did Beavers and has now moved up to Cubs - he really enjoyed it. But I have to say I don't think it will necessarily meet your expectations any better than Rainbows/Brownies. Someone above described it well in terms of running around a church hall, half finishing some craft project...the leaders wouldn't be keen to get into detailed discussion about any individual, and I'm not sure ours would even let a parent sit in.

I'm laughing at the idea that these volunteers give up an hour a week of their time! It just shows how little some parents seem to understand.
Yes they go to the meeting - but they will be there early to set up and late to clear away, clean and wait with the child whose parents have forgotten to pick up that week.
But they will have planned each meeting, had to purchase equipment/materials, prepared craft activities, risk assessed activities, organised visitors. They will have had to order badges. They will have to be running the accounts for the unit which are professionally audited each year. They will have to be updating every girls record on the GG system for every badge, skills builder activity etc. There will be trainings that the leader has to go to.
Extra activities like trips, residentials etc involve so much extra organising.
Then in a group of 24-30 how many emails/messages are sent every week whilst the Leader is also trying to do a full time job, look after their kids and run a house?
And then they have to buy their own uniforms.
And deal with parents...

This is totally reasonable - but I suppose the thing is that it really didn’t come across in your OP and subsequent responses that that’s all it’s been. You’ve also sat in on a meeting, and you think the leader is unengaged and dismissive and you ‘can’t get through to her’ which sounds a bit more… intense. Maybe you don’t mean to be, but you don’t sound very relaxed and perhaps that’s just a clash with this leader.

My DC have run the whole spectrum in groups like these from really quite disinterested leaders to the groups that expect your full participation and homework done every week and made you feel guilty for just wanting a low stress once a week commitment for your 5 year old. So be careful what you wish for! At the end of the day, some kids are desperate for badges, some don’t care, some leaders love the kids but aren’t as good with admin or parents, some are whizzes at admin and organising but too strict with the kids - it’s luck of the draw and just finding a group that suits. Good luck.

And thank you to all the leaders and regular volunteers - I’ve appreciated every one, from the less-organised to the military operations ones.

What you learn as you have more kids who do more stuff and go to more groups and schools and classes, and you talk to more and more parents, is that everybody has an opinion and you can’t please em all! Take what’s on offer and don’t complain, leave, or get involved and try to improve things. Those are the only options.

I suggest you take a step back here and look at the bigger picture. You are expecting your DD to spend an hour or so a week with a group of girls she doesn't know and who probably all know each other well. She may well not enjoy it as she is likely to be on the outside of the group, not due to anything she is doing but also not due to anything the other girls are doing. They probably see each other at school, do other clubs together, go to play dates & birthday parties. They're not deliberately excluding her but, at age 5 & 6, they won't have the social skills to remember to make your daughter feel included. Yes, the leader should be trying to make your daughter feel welcome & part of the group but she has a million and one things to do and a few words from her can't change the fact that the other girls have deeper rooted friendships.
Yes, getting your DD her Fruit & Veg badge and being given the correct stripe might make her feel special for a few minutes but it's not going to address the fundamental issue that you are dropping her off somewhere where she doesn't know anyone.
She's 5. There are umpteen other classes that children of that age can do. Also, this is Rainbows. It's not a key life skill. Has she shown an interest in anything else? If it's another group where she doesn't know anyone, more structured activities can help.

Personally I’d take her out of the group now and join brownies later. She’s very young to do something she’s not enjoying. And you really can’t expect the leader to do much more than run the group. Take it or leave it.

I have quite an introverted 5YO who can be quite reluctant to engage with new people and a bit of a PITA about concentrating. Nevertheless, she does various clubs and not once has she ever begged to not go or been at all awkward about going. If she did do you know what I'd do? I'd stop bloody taking her! She's a small child and she's communicating that she doesn't want to do something that in the grand scheme of things really isn't going to change the course of her life just stop going. Find another group, sign up for beavers/brownies instead or just take her to the park. You don't need to make it any more complicated than that

Op I think you're getting a hard time on here.

Sounds like the group is short staffed.
If a parent came to Beavers, the Scout leader is usually on the door. She'd certainly be available for a chat if needed. Sometimes she's not there on which case the Beaver Leader would be. Because there's other volunteers who can supervise and start the group. Similarly at the end, if a parent grabbed someone for a chat, the rest of us would get the kids out and tidy up to give them time to talk.
Elyse case scenario, they'd agree a time and place to talk.

Definitely don't expect parents to basically push the kids out the cat and collect an hour later with no interest in what's happening. The badges matter to the kids. Having friends there matters to the kids. Having a good relationship with parents matters to the leaders otherwise when you have a big group to take and you need volunteers, you're screwed.

Try Beavers. She can start at 5 3/4's

If you've genuinely only had one question about a badge book, and you've only raised one concern, then, yes, I agree, the leader could have been a bit more forthcoming. But to be fair to other posters, from your original post, it does come across as you being fairly pushy, sending lots of emails that the leader hasn't answered etc.

If you've only sent one email, then perhaps the leader has missed it/overlooked it. I admit that, as a cub leader, I've forgotten to respond to an email on occasion. I do get quite a few from parents - which is fine, but it's easy to miss one. If you need to talk to the leader, the best time to do this, in my experience, is at the end of the meeting, when the rest of the children have gone home. It's generally too busy at the beginning of a meeting, and there's no time for a proper chat.

At the end of the day, if you don't like how the leader is running the group, then it's probably time to move on. The leader is just a volunteer trying to do their best after all, and will be giving as much time and energy as she is willing to give. Perhaps that's not enough to run the group to its full potential, or perhaps you are have unrealistic expectations, it's hard to tell from what you have posted.

It might be worth moving groups, or trying Beavers if there are spaces available. However, leaders will vary from group to group, just as they do in Guiding. Perhaps ask other parents at school what groups their children go to, try to get recommendations. Or just asking your DD if she still wants to attend - perhaps it's just not her thing any more.