Accessing private school with limited financial resources

[mumofcocoandlexi]

I'm looking into my daughter going into private education for her gcse years as she is very bright and is being stunted in her current school. Unfortunately we couldn't afford it without a full bursary. Has anyone been able to get one?

What do you mean by "stunted"? What are her predicted grades?

Good god! So you were liable for 100% of fees on that first day and you risked them saying no (frankly, they could and even should have done).
They could easily have asked you to leave and take your child home on that day and then gone after your home through the courts.
You risked so much and you could have lost so much. It's really not a sensible course or action to recommend.

Hello OP
Have to say I agree with pp saying that you should look for a place for sixth form? Have also pm'ed you.

Personally I think private schools are a waste of money. Most bright kids with supportive parents do well in state schools. Some bright kids do badly in private schools.

@bluejelly yet you look at the 100s of posts on this forum about constant behaviour issues in many state schools, toilet being kept locked due to vandalism/vsping/bullying, bright kids being held back because teaches are too busy dealing with the naughty kids, crumbling schools etc etc. These are the reasons most private parents chose the private option. Many state schools just aren't good enough and bright kids don't achieve their full potential because the resources aren't there to enable them to do that.
So many posts from actual teachers in state school saying the system is failing ALL kids so sorry no I don't buy into this "bright kids can do well anywhere", they may do OK but do they do as well as they could do in a different environment?

I appreciate there are difficulties in some state schools but this has not been the experience of me, my daughter, nephews, nieces and cousins, all of who have done very well in comprehensive schools (I also know people who were bullied mercilessly at private school.)

No.

I'm a single mum, same issue. Ds got a 50% scholarship and I scrape the rest together. It means no holidays for me, and no treats but he's on track for 9 x grades 7-9.

Only another 2 terms to go 😅

@bluejelly well exactly, you can't generalise on either sector when you've only got your personal experience to go on. There is no denying that state schools are generally woefully underfunded and that there are serious issues with behaviour as a hangover from Covid. No-one is saying that ALL private schools are far better than ALL state ones but there is generally less disruptive behaviour and they generally have more peaceful learning environments due to lower numbers in classes (18-22 in DDs classes).
You are lucky to have good state schools near you, many people don't.

What support do you want her to have for her social and emotional needs? In what way is she being "stunted".

I think you would be better off spending your money on extra tuition if you think she needs stretching

This, no way I'd subject my child to this, I really think they'd struggle with being in that environment. I'd talk to her current school, look for a private tutor or look at another secondary school.

Out of interest, given VAT is 20% and the net impact of being able to reclaim some of the VAT it pays for things is that the school will need to hand over less than 20% to the government, why would they increase the fees by 25%?

Have you looked into state boarding schools? The educational element is generally provided free of charge and then they charge a low 'board and lodging' fee. But, you will need to be able to show that there is a reason why boarding will be beneficial for your child. Hope that helps.

Schools that are businesses are already VAT registered.

So there why would there be a change on how they claim VAT on the running of the school?

Schools that are charities would still have the same rules as they do now, wouldn't they?

@Londonscallingme because approx 80% of the school's outgoings will be wages which they can't claim VAT back on. Plus fees rise every year either inflation anyway so yes with VAT added on top of the annual rise you could be looking at 25-30% rises per annum. That's why so many private parents are saying it will be unaffordable.

This is my understanding (happy to be corrected!) - currently private schools do not charge VAT on school fees (any of them). This is a separate issue to whether or not they are charities. Labour are no longer talking about changing the charitable status of private schools, but they are proposing to make them add VAT to their fees (all of them). But VAT would be 20% and in reality, since the school would be able to claim back on some VAT they pay on services they consume, they would need to hand over less than 20%.

Ah, OK - So it's VAT plus the usual increase then, as opposed to 25% due to the VAT impact. I was wondering if I was missing something.

My DC is very musical and they have several friends through music on pretty much full bursaries (or 90%) at private schools. However, they tend to be National Youth Orchestra level type child plus clever. So they offer the private school something as they participate in concerts and play at open days etc and then go on to get into Oxford or Cambridge on organ or choral scholarships. She also knows some black children who have full bursaries especially boys - I think it is academically documented that black children can still experience racism even in good state schools. Some kids are on 110% so they can afford school trips and uniform. However, I think the bursaries go to kids where the private schools feel they can really make a difference somehow. Let’s say on the music or sport front, they offer loads of orchestras/matches etc - in reality, the very musical and sporty kids complain of extra obligations because where they are really top level outside clubs/football academies/London orchestras and music schools are better anyway.
So if your DC has a really big talent in something (can be Writing, Maths etc too) definitely worth a try. You can only ask but if you have a talent that could help.

I understand that.

It doesn't answer my question about why schools that are businesses and already VAT registered would be treated differently when fees cease to be exempt.

And why charities, which have different rules, would be treated differently for VAT on the business side of running the school (and how that works for a charity) Plus of course some are VAT registered already, eg if they hire out facilities.

I did say it was my personal opinion/experience. But I don't think i'm wrong in saying that most state schools are fine. Some are outstanding, some are shit, but there's lot of fearmongering too from people who are justifying the choice they were lucky enough to have.
I also think state schools would benefit from having more bright pupils around rather than having them creamed off by the private schools.

Exactly this. Presumably there are only a few schools that would work in terms of location for you, so you just need to work your way through them all enquiring what is on offer. Every school is different as they are all independent businesses. Are you considering moving house?

You should be aware that these days state education will probably be an advantage over private for getting a place at a top university as universities under pressure not to be favouring private school pupils.

I am sorry but I am really not sure what your question is.

You know that fees have been exempt from VAT and you know they will no-longer be exempt if Labour get elected and follow through on the plan to remove the exemption. So, that is how they will be treated differently, they will have to add VAT to their fees.

My question refers to this assertion

But VAT would be 20% and in reality, since the school would be able to claim back on some VAT they pay on services they consume, they would need to hand over less than 20%.

Please can someone, anyone, explain how that (handing over less than 20%) works for those schools that are:
a) businesses and already VAT registered
b) charities and already VAT registered (and benefitting from arrangements for charities)
c) charities and not already VAT registered (and benefitting from arrangements for charities)

Because I don't see how there will be any change for those already VAT registered, and I was wondering if the different rules for charities would in practice mean very little for those charities whose "housekeeping" turnover is below VAT threshold

If you can get a job in a private school you might be able to get a free place.

I was working at a private nursery attached to a school and the owner offered me a place for my 3 children. I turned it down because I wanted to leave and I would've had to have been trapped for many many years.

Op to be honest my daughter struggled with high school, with students being disruptive. At year 10 I think you would struggle to get her into a private school. We did consider online high school as this would have been a cheaper option then private. Once she finished high school though she's gone to a sixth form college that only does A levels and is actually loving it.

Sounds like the school are already giving her additional support for her subjects. If she is really finding the social side an issue maybe see if any other state schools have smaller class sizes. In year 8-9 most of ours aren't more then 25, GCSE classes vary quite a lot as the better sets have more students and the lower sets can be less then 20. I work in a average state school, the main advantage to private is that If children misbehave to much they actually get kicked out. They often won't take children with high SEN (so again less disruption as some of these students don't cope well in main stream) as they are selective.