Primary school admissions - 14 miles apart

[Ruralparents]

Hi all

I thought I’d join to mine your collective wisdom!

We live in rural Cambridgeshire, 6 miles from our nearest school in one direction and 8 miles from the next nearest in another.

Back in the depths of lockdown we had to a choose a school for our eldest to start at in Sept 2021. My wife teaches at the school 8 miles away and so we chose it because it would be handier. We didn’t know if our eldest would get in there but she did. And it turns out that her catchment school, 6 miles away, was oversubscribed.

Now, in 2023 our daughters school is over subscribed and our youngest has been placed at the catchment school. These two school are 14 miles apart! We lost our appeal and have now got the prospect of trying to manage a 28 mile school run, twice a day.

Cambridgeshire council don’t care, they are hiding behind their protocols and passing the buck.

We asked if our eldest could move schools to be with our youngest and they’ve refused because her year group at the catchment school is oversubscribed.

Out of catchment siblings get the same priority as in catchment siblings in Suffolk and Norfolk, but not Cambridgeshire. And when you live 6 and 8 miles from the two schools it’s fairly obvious you’re going to be at the bottom of the admissions list when either school is over subscribed.

Has anyone had any joy appealing on the grounds of unreasonable journey times etc? I just don’t think anyone should be made to do over 10000 miles a year on the school run. School transport hasn’t been offered but even if we can get it, someone still has to be available to put a 4 year old in a taxi and to collect them etc, it doesn’t help the logistics.

There is an ombudsman, but I think they have just rigged the whole system in order to do as they please and screw those who live out in the sticks.

then at those periods of the year, you pay someone to do the school run

Siblings in catchment are something like priority 3 in Cambridgeshire, and siblings out of catchment are something like 5 or 7, depending on the particular school and whether they have additional faith-based or locality-based criteria.

However, I have known it to be the case in Cambridgeshire that schools have been so over-subscribed that not all in-catchment siblings get places, and the OP, being on the edge of a catchment area that has seen new residential developments In recent years, could well have been at risk of not getting a place. I think he said that other in-catchment siblings had that experience this year? If he had a child placed at his wife’s school instead of choosing it, and thus was considered an in-catchment sibling application, it sounds as though he might well still have been in this situation.

There are lots of siblings split in Cambridgeshire- in part because where you can commute to the city there is a lot of in-year movement of academic families and it’s tricky to find schools with spaces, but also because they are very cash-strapped in terms of the school funding formula and short on places, and finally because they keep building new housing and being very slow to open up the required new schools, meaning when people move into a new area the eldest sibling gets sent wherever there is space.

None of which to say that splitting siblings is a good idea, just that Cambridgeshire is particularly crap in this regard.

Sadly the current system implies parents have a choice in where their child goes to school, they don’t. It’s the decision of the local authority where they go, and that can be very stressful for lots of reasons.I feel for you both.

I live in a town in the SE and school places are scarce. Until recently, children from our local infant school all had to go to different junior schools as there was no one direct school. Siblings were not guaranteed places in the same school so some parents were picking up and dropping off all over the borough. The solution was parents coming together to create a free school (academy). In an overpopulated urban area, it was a challenge but a viable option. I appreciate not one open to you though.

It may have already been suggested but have you contacted your local councillor and MP? It’s worth a go as often ‘the squeakiest wheel gets the most oil’ :)

Can’t believe the general silliness of so many of the posters. Like you OP, i live in a rural area ( in Cumbria ) and am fully familiar with the general lack of interest councils have in their rural outposts. It seems to me utterly ridiculous, the situation you find yourselves in and can only assume that the majority of responders live in urban areas, otherwise people would not be saying such stupid things as ‘it’s your own fault’! Like you, our area is being flooded with new houses but no extra school places - all our local schools are full to bursting and anomalies such as yours are occurring all the time. It is just crazy - i also would be hopping mad, like you (although you are keeping your cool much more than i would in the face of such idiocy!)

There is no 'perfect' admissions system that will meet everyone's desires.

Those, like the OP, who are arguing for automatic/higher regard for siblings are looking at it from the perspective of now having a sibling.

If the higher sibling category had been in place prior to the OP (or others) making their first rodeo into school admissions, they may well have missed out on a place at their preferred school(s) due to a criteria that may look like this - LAC/SEN/All sibs/everyone else. Even splitting criteria to LAC/SEN/Catchment sibs/everyone else/non catchment sibs would result in some in the 'everyone else' category possibly missing out (plus am not sure what proportion of schools have defined catchment areas as opposed to distance so the catchment/non catchment element becomes harder to manage).

I suspect many actually want a non sibs criteria for their first child and then a sibs criteria after that - which is (understandably) self centred and yet not quite the altruistic notion some on here are suggesting.

No, because if your eldest doesn’t get in you reassess and make your life choices based on it.

The fact is that the eldest was eligible in 2021, as was anyone else closer than us, some got it after her, the youngest was eligible in most years I could find, except, now that they’ve built the houses, and refused the school expansion, he’s way down the list.

When the youngest doesn’t get in then at the least you have to yank the eldest out of a school they’re hopefully enjoying, or, in our case, the council refuses to let either child move in either direction and tells you to get on a waiting list that may or may not work.

I live in Cambridgeshire and have two children at state schools. Unfortunately, there is huge pressure on school places. I know at least one family with 3 children at 3 different schools. It is even worse at secondary level than primary level, so best plan carefully for that.

Many schools don't have enough places for children who live in catchment, let alone those who live out of catchment. Since you are 8 miles from your preferred school, it would be unfair to take away a place from a child who lives close by. Realistically, the only (almost) failsafe way to ensure that you get your child into a particular school is to move very close to it.

Though your situation is far from ideal, it doesn't sound completely unworkable.

As I said pages back, it seems to me that the underlying problems here are about school capacity across the county and a mismatch between where people live and where the school places are. Others have already pointed out how difficult it can be to resolve these issues, especially when few schools are under direct LEA control.

I suspect those same parents will say it's not fair if/when their year 6 kids get a succession of supply teachers.

Nothing to add really except I think you're getting a hard time here quite unreasonably. Having got your first child into a certain school you'd have every reason to hope to get lucky again. Not naive or unreasonable, just unlucky.

But I'm certain you're entitled to transport for your DS to the catchment school. As PPs have said, the LA have to provide a bus or taxi if over a certain distance - 2 or three miles. I know you may not want to send him that way aged 4 but assuming there's no bus then a taxi might be less scary for him? Look into it now (school transport on the LA website) and demand your rights. Don't let them fob you off with waffle about funding, I'm sure they have to provide it.

Good luck!

The local authority has an obligation to provide a school place. The logistics of how you get your child there or any childcare requirements are not their problem.

@PanelChair I think LAs are supposed to plan school places though. I agree mats make it more challenging. Around me, CofE schools stay open regardless of how many Dc go to them. That does mean there’s capacity and some of these schools changed from infant to combined. They now go YR to Y6 and have had building work to facilitate this. It’s certainly an attempt to match school places to Dc.

Im wondering if Cambs thinks they have the highest no of Dc in rural Cambs now. They can review catchments. We have catchments so schools near the county border have a catchment within our county. They are occasionally an odd shape. Certainly plenty of schools have expanded and often they are rural ones. New schools have been planned for years for new housing estates. So I cannot see why Cambs doesn’t work with the mats. CofE and their own schools

School transport won’t fully resolve the issue. Mum will have gone to work with child 1, leaving child 2 at home to get on the bus/taxi. So dad still needs to be there, not with the chickens. And same at the other end of the day - no chance she’ll make it home before the transport does.

It will cut down the amount of time needed for the school run though- and OP, did you say you have a parent who might be able to help, albeit not in the best of health? Would they be up to meeting the transport if not doing the whole school run?

I have no experience of taxis, but mine have been getting a school bus from reception age (they’re old for their year though, so were 5). It’s actually fine - there’s a lot of kids on the bus. I think I’d be less ok with a taxi, though, somehow.

If you think your youngest is up to school transport I think I’d try to make that work, and put the eldest on the waiting list for the catchment school. As a catchment child they should be near the top of the list, and when infant class size isn’t an issue you might stand a better chance of getting them in. Also, is there much movement to private in your area? We usually lose some at around year 3 in our area, to private prep - which frees up some spaces.

TizerOrFizz - Yes, they are, but I guess it’s a fairly imprecise art or science, with (as you say) the further complication of few schools being under direct LEA control.

School transport at least cuts the travel for the parents, esp at that distance it's a lot of miles to fund both in terms of fuel and the general wear and tear on the car.

For what it’s worth, I agree that the over subscription criteria you describe are batshit. In our area children of staff are priority 3, above catchment children even. If they weren’t, we’d lose half the staff at the school, and god knows we haven’t got enough as it is.

Teachers cannot be in two places at once. They can’t be both meeting their own class and dropping their children off at a different school. TBH you’re lucky you’ve got wraparound available . We don’t. And no childminders dropping off and picking up at the school either. It’s a nanny, or quit your job. We make it work, just, by using school transport because it cuts down the amount of time needed, and we work from home. No use if you don’t.

I used to live in Wasdale and my twins from ages 5 to 7 got picked up at 8 am to do a 9 mile journey to our closest school in Gosforth. The OP just wants some helpful advice not vitriol. People saying its their own fault need to take a sensitivity check. Sometimes intentions are good but things get in the way. I only fully understood school appeal policies after appealing for my girls high school places. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and people are often caught out by catchment boundary guidelines or PAN numbers. My advice is to get your children on the waiting list for a school that would work for both of you and see if any other parents/friends/family members on the commute could help you with the school runs. Other parents will be in similar positions so will no doubt be scrambling for a solution. Good luck and hope everything works out. The other option is to camoflage your daughter as a chicken and feed her grain til the council see sense! 😉

Isn’t the UK good.

Free schooling, and free transportation if, god forbid, you live further than a few miles from a school, and all on the tax payer.

Having children can make people sound very entitled, on this occasion this sounds exactly like that.

You've consistently made your own choices, from your career, to where you work, where you live, having children, where your eldest went to school.

You took a chance on a choice you had and it didn’t pay off, but it’s certainly nobody else’s responsibility. Throwing your teddies out the pram citing unfairness of rural living, being a farmer, wife’s a teacher and her employers should resolve your issue, the council should adjust to suit your situation etc all just sound ridiculous as it all worked wonderfully for you until it didn’t… because of a choice you made.

And ignorance of the system is not an excuse to start blaming everyone rather than chalking it up.

Just be grateful your kids have schooling and you do actually have a few choices in regards to a solution. The very fact that it inconveniences you and your choices have resulted in your child being in a car for so long will hopefully make you consider your life choices a bit harder next time.

Schooling isn’t free, in the the same way the NHS isn’t free, the government levies high levels of tax which it is suppose to use to fund basic services.

Astonishing this has to be explained.

Unfortunately paying tax doesn’t get you policies tailored to you. Shane it isn’t for lots of things but that’s life.

If @Loopylemon2 thinks that goods and services are free, then they are in no position to make snarky comments at strangers on the internet.

They tell me to be grateful my kids have schooling, I am grateful, but it’s a gratitude akin to having a decent meal at a restaurant and paying for it, not the gratitude of receiving a free gift.

If, after serving your main course that restaurant turned out to expect you to travel 14 miles before serving your dessert, and then pointed to the small print and told you it was all your fault, then your gratitude would be somewhat reduced.

I'm not sure linking a commercial business to Government funded aka UK tax payers funded services wins you any admiration. We all work hard buddy and there's a lot of people paying into tax that don't take out as much as you do, but they diligently continue to do so.

Ignorance is not an excuse to feel aggrieved. In your example, if you took a service and enjoyed the service, then refused to pay on the grounds you didn't read the small print and it didn't suit you in the end… what do you think a judge would say.

Your comment just make you sound more entitled.

Well you could have expressed a preference for your catchment school then all your courses would have been in one place.

Also now everyone expresses a preference (nit choice) school planning does become more difficult.

In your position I would also read what Cambs actually do about school planning. They are legally required to have a framework for the provision of places for Dc starting school and ensure sufficient places are available. They are also required to ensure housing developers pay a sum towards schools via their planning obligations. Most issue guidance for developers.

Lastly, LAs commission schools. They then put the running of the schools out for competition regarding who will run them because by law, they must be academies. The framework gives everyone info on who is consulted and what the process is. My LA doesn’t consult mats but does consult Diocesan Education boards. Mats will apply to run the schools. So where new houses are built, there should be a clear strategy to provide school places. Clearly population growth drives this but it’s not an exact science. Planning housing developments take years. And years. LAs have no excuse for not planning new schools. My LA has just advertised the competition to run three new schools.

Rural schools suffer from fewer housing estates of any size and sometimes restricted school sites make expansion difficult. Sometimes CofE schools have wanted to expand but one thing school planning cannot cope with is people not using local schools. My LA makes it very clear they see local schools for local dc at the heart of the school planning policy. When parents avoid the local school and then want special consideration for siblings at another school it’s difficult to see how this sits with rational school planning based on evidence of population growth and housing developments.

It’s also not down to each LA to write the admissions policy for schools. Again the LA will try and ensure the admissions policy is legal and offer guidance to schools. Therefore there are differences in admission policies and certainly teacher dc are not always included. Where teachers travel to school, they still seem to prefer dc going to the local school with friends from the local community.

What is it that you think I take out of the tax system more than others do?

Making government services a special case in which they can do a shoddy job, underfund them relentlessly whilst the people should be ever so grateful and uncomplaining serves noone and ensures they carry on being poor. I’m not here to win your admiration.

Your further example doesn’t work, taxpayers pay for the service all their working life, their children throughout theirs and so on. If you wanted your example to work you’d need to be paying an enforced lifelong subscription to the restaurant and then not appealing when it served the 2 different courses 14 miles apart, 5 days a week, and pointed to the small print.

Is describing people as being entitled an example of Mumsnet shorthand, denoting ‘someone with which I disagree’ in the way that DD signifies having a female child? I think I’m beginning to learn the ropes here.