Outstanding secondary school vs Grammar school

[estebancolberto]

Our house is within the catchment area for a "outstanding" secondary school. However, we would like to know whether we should consider moving to an area with a grammar school instead? How do they compare in education achievement and future prospects? Should a kid will be fine studying in "outstanding" secondary school vs a grammar school?

Someone above stated that it is not only non academic kids who are disruptive in class. This may be true to a point, but unfortunately, it is often correct ( ex teacher here).

I think it is often down to the fact that non academic kids struggle with the school system and the material they are expected to access. This leads to frustration and boredom, and consequently to disruptive behaviour .

Added to this is the fact that they often have parents who struggled at school and so don’t value or support their children’s education.

Which school has an ethos that matches yours and suits your child? Our local comp is outstanding and has a grammar stream, but we absolutely hated it and knew DD would too. It is so incredibly strict and DD can be tbh quite naughty.

We chose the grammar that favours carrot over stick and she is happy and thriving and there are no behaviour issues.

I don’t understand why you think that higher academic ability translates to better behaviour?

I didn't say it did. I've taught plenty of well-behaved academically weaker students and plenty of academically able but poorly-behaved students. But far, far more poorly-behaved students who are below average ability. This is something any teacher (and and pupil) could confirm from everyday observation.

Selective schools have a different behaviour profile for a variety of reasons, related not only partly to the ability of their students, but also to the attitudes of the parents who chose to send their child to grammar school and the ethos of that kind of school. In a school where high achievement and good behaviour are seen to be the norm (by staff and pupils), good behaviour tends to persist. At my school, if a student swore at a teacher or was openly defiant or rude (commonplace in lots of schools), most of the rest of the students would be horrified.

Are you saying that children with lower academic ability are automatically disruptive? My DD is y11 and will get all 8s/9s in her GCSEs at her “comp” so just keen to understand your data source?

My data source is 27 years of teaching in a wide variety of schools. My children will get great results at their comp too, because they are very bright, motivated and have supportive, academic parents who know the system. What about the students who don't? There was an article in the papers today about the staggering amount of learning time lost to bad behaviour.

The fact that less able students are more often poorly-behaved isn't a direct correlation between intelligence and behaviour imo. It's that some low academic achievement is down to attitude rather than ability. And the fact that many students who have low academic ability become disengaged with learning because they are frustrated and don't see the point of behaving/working if they feel they still won't do well.

Go around the schools and see which you prefer.

As a parent about to embark on tutoring for 11+, I'd be inclined to stay put if you are in a truly comprehensive area!

We bought our house before our son was born and aren't going to move for a school, but there is a bit of a two tier education system here.

A number of my friends agree we'd much prefer not to have to be going through this process. I'd happily send my son to a mixed comprehensive if it had a good reputation.

I grew up in an exclusively grammar/secondary modern system and attended a grammar school. My kids have grown up in an area with no grammar schools and multiple outstanding comprehensives. Having seen both systems, I wouldn't ever consider moving to a grammar/secondary modern area. My children have definitely benefitted from from the broader mix of pupils in terms of social skills. DD was able to be taught in appropriate classes for her spiky academic profile, and as someone who would have got into grammar school (full marks in 2 of her 3 SATS exams) but who is fundamentally practical rather than academic, she would have been miserable at a grammar. DS would probably have been happy at a grammar school (as long as it wasn't single sex as most of his friends are girls) but he might not have got in, as he bloomed at secondary level rather than primary school.

I don't necessarily ideologically agree with the grammar school system. It benefits those who get in, and does not benefit those who don't. Still, if I had my time over again, I'd put my dc in for the 11+. You can only work with the system you've got.

We visited local grammars and local comps and the difference between the two was really striking. The grammars were just so much nicer in every way.

Personally, I don’t particularly care about exam results. I cared more about the everyday experience, where behaviour isn’t a problem, where toilets aren’t locked during lesson times due to vandalism, high quality staff etc.

I have one child at grammar, one at a non-grammar. I don't think one is particularly cleverer than the other, but one passed her 11+and one didn't.

Tbf I'm happy with both schools, but they are very different. The non-grammar definitely has behaviour issues but has great pastoral support. The grammar has older more experienced teachers (that are 'boring') the non grammar seem to be on the whole younger, possibly a bit less good at controlling the class, but much more fun and engaging.

It's an interesting experiment that I wish I hadn't signed up to! I'll wait to see how GCSEs compare in a couple of years....but I wish we only had the option of comprehensives so don't move!!

Hi, I went to a Grammar School, and my husband went to a Secondary Modern. I left school with 4 O'levels, went to Secretarial College, and have always done fairly mediocre jobs(we are now retired). My husband on the other hand has 3 Undergraduate degrees, 2 Masters and a PhD. One exam on one day cannot in any way determine a child's future course in life. Plus Grammar Schools are full of the anxious children of pushy middle-class parents (like mine!). My husband grew up on a Council Estate and his father was a car worker.
Please don't push your kids unnecessarily. it's OK if they fail the 11+. In the scheme of things. Who will care a monkey's in 20 years time. Really

@estebancolberto What would be your reasoning? And how old is the child concerned?

My ds went to an inner city grammar (Ofsted outstanding, but latest mini check up suggests it might be downgraded next time) for years 7-11. He's not naturally studious and has ADHD, but once he had the diagnosis they were great with him. However, he wanted to move for sixth form for a more 'normal' cohort (less geeky I think he meant!).

We were moving house anyway so he is at sixth form at an (Ofsted outstanding, very popular) comprehensive in a fairly affluent area. He hates it! He used to moan about his old school, but now he sings their praises.

The main things we've noticed are staff turnover - the staff at the grammar school were so stable, I think one teacher left in the 5 years he was there, and several were old students of the school. He's had a huge amount of teacher absence in his 18months in sixth form too, which he never had before. There's also a serious lack of organisation/responsiveness at the comp and he feels they're treated like kids. From our perspective, they promise things but don't do them and they're also overly focused on a slightly 'woke' agenda. The grammar school was very diverse, with lots of religious pupils, so they shied away from this.

However, I guess a lot of this is individual to the schools involved. I do wonder if staffing is more stable in grammar schools though as behaviour is better?

We had a similar choice to make. The next door borough to us has a grammar system. In fact it’s extremely competitive and latterly a lot of (very tutored) Hong Kong Chinese families are taking the places. Many families are getting tutors from year 4ish. We decided not to put our kids through that kind of pressure. Also the houses in that area are far more expensive than ours despite it being really hard to get into the grammars

I think all you can do I look at individual schools, and not get stuck in a comp v grammar loop because as you've seen there are vastly different experiences.

It's really important to go beyond the Ofsted reports and really look at school data - my eldest missed out on a super selective grammar and so we are at our local comp which is Ofsted "good" but is six or seven years out of being Requires Improvement, and is often talked about quite sneeringly on MN. But we were pleasantly surprised by how much we liked it at the open day and it was really going to be beyond us to send two kids private, so looking at the data we took the plunge.

You should look at stuff like Progress 8 but not just the overall, look at how they do with kids at different levels of prior attainment and how that will work for your child. Look at SEN and EHCP levels - a school with below average levels of SEN may find those top grades easier to hit, and there may be a link to absence as well. And look at extracurricular - our comp has better provision and range than the superselective grammar and I think the extracurricular programme can be a really good measure of how engaged and enthusiastic the teaching staff are (though there will be other factors that affect this). Our comp had great results for kids at high prior attainment which was our big worry and our experience so far has matched the data, DS is thriving, heavily involved in clubs and is being really stretched academically and I'm glad we didn't panic and move, or take on unsustainable debt because I'd bought into the prevailing narrative.

They're not really comps if it's an area with multiple grammars though, is it? Or am I misunderstanding and it's a south London superselective kind of thing?

One thing to take into consideration is where tour child will go if they do not pass the 11+.

We moved out of a grammar area, as the 11+ was not suitable for our DD. So now, at a very good Comprehensive (Good on Ofsted, steady results, great SEN and vocational provision) she is in the top sets for Matns and Science... and in a support group for English. She is likely to get 8s in some subjects at GCSE... but 4/5 in other areas. A Secondary Modern, without the other high flyers in Maths, might not have been appropriate either.

I would only move to a Grammar area if I was certain my child will pass. (Complete 11+ areas, not counting the ones with just a Super selective school)

Is there any guarantee that your child will score high enough on the 11+ to be offered a place? To move and upheave them when you live near a good comp sounds wild.

This thread is from June last year so it’s unlikely the OP will see the posts.

Someone above stated that it is not only non academic kids who are disruptive in class. This may be true to a point, but unfortunately, it is often correct ( ex teacher here).

I locked my German teacher in the stationary cupboard when I was year 9. I got straight As and passed my MSc with a distinction.

Anecdotes do not equal data.

How old is your child now and how academic are they? And how academic are their friends?

I didn't live in a grammar area, but my parents allowed me to look around all the school options available to me, including independents, and make my own decision. Was it the best decision for me academically? Probably not. Was it the best decision for me socially? Probably yes.

Also live in Hants and the local comps have bright kids getting 8 and 9s too. 6th form colleges have lots going to oxbridge. I think the reason to go to grammar is not to get the better grades, but avoid being in the same school as the less academic kids. Similar to going to independent to avoid poorer kids.

I don’t see why you would move to a grammar area at all.