Grammar - is it still taught/prioritised in Schools?

[lisalisa]

Just reading soemthing about grammar on another thread and it brought to mind issues I've been having with my children's grammar.

I've noticed that grammar as a subject to be learnt has not been introduced yet to dd - she's in year 3. I don't actaully remember learning it myself at School - just sort of picked it up but dd says things like " I beginned to like this mummy". I do correct her and ds ( aged 5 in Year 1) who also comes out with similar whoppers but neither of them really seem to twig.

Is this common and does it sort of fall into place or is this something that should be taught by now? I had in mind learning " I begin, he begins, past tense - they began, it is beginning "etc.

Another one is the verb to run. both dd and ds say " I runned over there mummy". Runned fgs??? Don't you mean ran over there? No mummy, ran is a daddy sheep.

Do your dc's learn grammar or do they also make these mistakes?

DD1 is very bright and ds too ( although he has a few more problems with reading and writing so probably wouldn't have thought twice if it'd been just him).

Grammer (and spelling) for that matter, appear to be unimportant to many teachers. I remember asking all my children's teachers why they had displayed work that was full of bad spellings - in each case their reply was that they didn't correct childrens spellings as they wouldn't want to undermine their confidence. This was in junior school. My DS often came home ranting that people at school got good marks for handing bad work in, when he worked hard on his all work to ensure that his spellings, etc were correct - he often asked why he should bother.

At the other end of the scale, when I was undertaking my degree, one woman in particular was on the same course and she used to give everyone her work to read - she was a lovely woman, but her writing was abysmal. Very bad spellings, didn't know how to form paragraphs and would use each sentence as a paragraph. Her grammer was so appalling that it was often difficult to understand what she had written. I don't think that she ever answered an assignment question, and would often just write in note form. Yet the tutors continually accepted her work for the first two years. It was someone from the final examiners who questioned the quality of her work and consequently she failed. On the one hand, if she had had the support initially, might she have stood a better chance.

Grammer (and spelling) is something that children can learn from their parents as they grown up. It might not seem likely at this moment, but your childrens language skills will improve with your help - just don't make a big issue of it.

Another problem with school is the way children speak. All my children were taught to speak properly, within two years of going to school - they had all developed vile broad yorkshire accents and the lingo to go with it.

I'm loving discovering how crazy the English language is from my son who is 21 months. Today it rained. He said "rain" then "it rainy". I agreed it was rainy and look how wet it was. He said "wet" and then "it wetty". I love "wetty" and have resolved to use it more often.

Funnily enough he says "I read" to rhyme with "feed", but correctly says "I read" to rhyme with "bed" after he finishes the book. He must just have picked this up, and it does demonstrate the importance of setting a good example.

One of the few things that I am really impressed with from the government publications for teaching literacy is the Grammar for Writing one which I am harping on about. It give children both the knowledge and the tools to use grammar, not just for grammar's sake, but to actively improve their writing - which is a HUGE push in schools - especially the higher attaining schools/pupils where the gulf between their reading and writing is most marked. So, by the end of this term, I would normally (if I hadn't been on the sick) be able to discuss with 'upper middle' set of pupils the effect of moving the subordinate clause in a sentence to the beginning and how it impacts on their writing. AND THEY WOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS GOING ON ABOUT! They wouldn't just sit and write out 'grammar exercises' but we would discuss and 'notice' particular sentence structures in our reading work. play around with different structures and discuss the effect, reward good and varied sentence structures, talk about complex sentences and spot them in their persoanl reading books........

As I say to year 6, 'It ain't what you write, it's the way that you write it!' and you can't write in a mature style if you don't understand HOW and WHAT to do to improve it.

IMHO

Just to pick up on Joash's point about bad spelling and grammar not being picked up. If we are working on grammar, say incorporating complex sentences into written work, and that has been our grammar target for a few weeks, I might set a piece of writing with specific 'success criteria' and only pick up on those particular things. So for eg, putting the subordinate clause at the beginning of sentences and plurals rules in spelling, the checklist for a good piece of writing woud include those things.......
If they were incorrect in their spelling of the word 'receive' for example, or they didn't punctuate direct speech perfectly, I would overlook it (unless it had been one of our very recent targets)
Does that make any sense?

Just to pick up on Joash's point about bad spelling and grammar not being picked up. If we are working on grammar, say incorporating complex sentences into written work, and that has been our grammar target for a few weeks, I might set a piece of writing with specific 'success criteria' and only pick up on those particular things. So for eg, putting the subordinate clause at the beginning of sentences and plurals rules in spelling, the checklist for a good piece of writing woud include those things.......
If they were incorrect in their spelling of the word 'receive' for example, or they didn't punctuate direct speech perfectly, I would overlook it (unless it had been one of our very recent targets)
Does that make any sense?

Just to pick up on Joash's point about bad spelling and grammar not being picked up. If we are working on grammar, say incorporating complex sentences into written work, and that has been our grammar target for a few weeks, I might set a piece of writing with specific 'success criteria' and only pick up on those particular things. So for eg, putting the subordinate clause at the beginning of sentences and plurals rules in spelling, the checklist for a good piece of writing woud include those things.......
If they were incorrect in their spelling of the word 'receive' for example, or they didn't punctuate direct speech perfectly, I would overlook it (unless it had been one of our very recent targets)
Does that make any sense?

whoops...

Oh and I just thought of another thing (yes, I am being a grammar bore - sorry)

The thing where children say 'I runned' or 'sheeps' actually means that they do know grammar - they know that for most words, you add -ed to make them into past tense and add -s to pluralise....they are just overgeneralising the rule and haven't grasped the exceptions yet.

Hi Popsycal - yes your comments do make sense. And apologies if I offended anyone.

I do know that there are some damn good teachers out there, but, it is frustrating for me as a parent and grandparent when children come home and are disheartened by situations such as the one I posted last night.

As an 'audience' I am often frustrated by signs in shop windows, or even professionally produced notices and signs - that are full of bad spellings or grammatically incorrect (and not deliberately). As a post-16 tutor, I have had work handed to me that was actually written in mobile phone 'text'. One writer in particular could not see what the problem was. He genuinely believed that his grammar and spelling was acceptable. As an invigilator, I have collected exam papers in where the same sort of thing has occurred. How on earth do these people get to adulthood and not be able to spell even basic words or construct a sentence?

We have a game at school where, when we 'do' the dreaded apostrophe, we have a 'wrong apostrophe' competition....got to bring examples of bad apostrophe usage found in the real world....
one boy even made his step dad change the sign outside his shop and all his business stationery as he had committed this dire offense!
Made me smile!
:)

A little aside.

I saw a news item recently about the launch of the government's Media Literacy project and I was so excited!! Someone to complain to about advertisements that use "it's" instead of "its"!

But I was wrong. It's an agency set up to help the maturer among us use internet and mobile phones. Sob.

we need a new apostrophe thread....

Has anyone managed to find the Parts of Speech poem recommended by Yoyo's dh?

I can't find it - is it just me?

Rosielee - here it is (old-fashioned but it works and children respond well to it).

The eight parts of speech poem

Every name is called a noun
As field and fountain, street and town;

In place of noun the pronoun stands,
As he and she can clap their hands;

The adjective describes a thing,
As magic wand or bridal ring;

The verb means action, something done –
To read and write, to jump and run;

How things are done the adverbs tell,
As quickly, slowly, badly, well;

The preposition shows relation,
As in the street or at the station;

Conjunctions join, in many ways,
Sentences, words, or phrase and phrase;

The interjection cries out, Hark!
I need an exclamation mark.

I forgot to put all the important bits in bold but they should be obvious.

oh yoyo!!

I know little bits of that but with slightly different words....a teacher of mine once talk me it.....

Didnt know it was a poem.....i teach it in bits to the children i teach

Thanks Yoyo, very useful!

very instersting to read all your comments;
especially since english is not my first language (german is).
but i do live in the uk now and my son will go to an english school sooner or later. I have to admit that i am a bit concerned about though.
firstly nobody so far could explain to me how the english school system actually works and secondly i read that there are still children who finish school and can't read/write - how is that possible???

in austria they teach you grammar really well. but it does help when you read alot

i realise from your comments that there is a divided field - some schools do teach grammar, some don't! i always knew i'd have to sit down and "help" my children; well, if needed.

scary story about law students who don't know about grammar. i always thought they especially should know how to put a sentence together that makes perfect sense

but i've got a clue why so few english people speak a foreign language - you lot on here not included obviously!

and with all your accents and dialects you can drive me crazy sometimes!!

we also want our son to grow up bilingual. hope he won't get too confused with english/german grammar

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