B & C A level grades were ‘RG’ worthy in 80s? What’s changed

[Peverellshire]

Why are required A level grades so high now? Is it easier to get an A or A star now compared to early to mid 80s? Well A star wasn’t a ‘thing’ back then but…

In past B,C,C and certainly A,B,B enough to get on relatively prestigious courses at top universities, so what’s changed?

I'm glad they teach study skills now. DD1's GCSEs seemed a lot higher level stuff than I remember in the late 1980s, particularly maths, she started stuff in Y6 that I definitely didn't see until Y8, and A-Level standards seem really high to me. Plus a third or more of most of my courses was coursework. And now it's all, or nearly all on the exams. Also there are fucking loads of them and they go on for ages, most of mine were done in about two weeks. DD1's start next week and go on until nearly the end of June.

I was offered CCC to do my course by Imperial, UCL and Birmingham in the very late 70s. In fact, all my offers were CCC. They'd also generally accept BCD as long as the maths grade was a minimum C. I do know that they did increase to BCC over the next couple of years, where the B had to be maths.

The thing is that even if it ISN'T grade inflation and genuinely reflects better learning and teaching (I do think it's grade inflation btw, but ignoring that for a second) then you still get the same outcome. A higher number of students with top grades trying to get a university place.

There are way more resources and spoonfeeding now than in the 80s.when I did a levels there were no re ision guides and no online resources or online past papers and mark schemes.iy was just your text book and the notes you had made.

I went to a hard to get in to grammar school in the 80's and probably a handful of people got 3 A's (no-one did 4 then) - I got BBC and got my first choice RG Uni - my offer was BCC I think - to read a maths/stats course.

I also know that on some scientific courses now that the first semester is spent getting students up to the maths level of 30 years ago as some of what was taught in maths then is part of the further maths syllabus now - which is why further maths is required by many more places than it used to be so that they don't have to do this baselining.

Well I remember going to the Durham open day in 2000 and the lecturer opened his talk with " if you aren't going to get 3As it probably isn't worth applying...."

grade inflation, and the A grade. If you got a B in the 1980s, that would be an A/A now. A 1980s C is the equivalent to a B at the very least now, probably an A. Every 1980s grade is worth 1.5 grades higher now.

sorry A/A should read A*/A

My son is disabled and I help him with his revision. For History, he is studying the exact same books I looked at in my first year. In fact, one book was written by my own professor and another by the lecturer who took me for seminars - now famous in the History circuit. The level of response and analysis is equivalent to first year. I would not say grade inflation but kids are revising endlessly for months and getting angst - look at Student Room with questions like is too late to revise 2 months before exams.

I work in education (across age groups and in various settings and over the last 25 years) and I think the change is that teachers are more effectively teaching to the test now. It's not a better education perse but it's more effective at getting students the top grades. Then when they get to uni some really flounder as they're used to getting a lot of scaffolding from their teachers and uni is more about independent study.

The big change is the style of marking, which used to be bell curve

Percentages would vary a bit, but when you have (for example, figures changed depending on spread of mark outcomes) top 5% getting A, next 20% getting B, next 40% getting C, next 20% % D, next 10% E remaining 5% U, then you know that someone getting BBB is in the top 25% of academic performance at those exams.

Today, everyone who meets the (only slightly variable) grade boundary, gets the grade if they reach that score, which means that in 2019 (last year before covid), there were A* 8% A 18% B 26% C 24% D 15% E 7% U 3% (source Statistica, with my rounding)

So to get the same 25% best academic performance, the offer needs to be all A*/A

I was a child of the 70s.

My DC didn't face calculus and some of the trickier geometry until AS/A level, whereas we definitely did it for O level on the London exam board syllabus. (I've still got my old maths exam papers, as we were allowed to keep them in those ancient days.)

As pp says, in those days it was lessons and prep/homework, and that was it.

I did my A levels in the 80’s and taught secondary for 26 years.

A levels are way way harder now and much much more content. Teaching is also better and students are made aware of assessment criteria which no one knew about in the 80’s.

However applications to university are dropping a lot. People don’t want the debt. Apprenticeships are rising. I think university grades may come down as a result of this.

My ds is working way harder than I ever did to get the grades for his uni place.
He's bright and works hard but he's not exceptional and just knows he has to put the effort in.
It seems to me that a levels are harder now.

Grade inflation.

I got into a RG uni in 1993 with two Bs and a C.

Were you interviewed? I remember having to travel around the UK for interviews when I was a very green 17 year old, on my own. It was very scary! I was interviewed usually by two of the department lecturers, and then a student volunteer would show you around and look after you.

If you interviewed well a CCC offer was pretty standard at places like Newcastle, Cardiff, Liverpool, York and Sheffield in my subject, as long as you had the right subjects at A level, and the 'matriculation panel' of O levels (maths, eng, a language, a science) at good grades.

I went to Medical School in the early 80s. The standard offer from more or less everywhere was BBB then. Some places would accept a C or two if you ticked their boxes in other ways. Of course lots of us got higher than that, but Bs were considered good grades and were more than adequate for most courses then. Apart from Oxbridge, and Vet Science which was going through the first All Creatures Great and Small boom at the time, I don't think many courses actually asked for As. It's all gone a bit crazy now, I think the system could do with a reset really.

Dumbing down and grade inflation.

I did A level Maths in the 80s. My son did A level Maths 3 years ago and is now just coming to the end of his Maths degree. There were topics I did at A level which he didn't and is now doing in his degree. Not just one aspect but several.

I remember A level Maths being very hard, but my son's A level work looked to me more to be around the old O Level standard.

At the end of the day, we can't have decades of dumbing down and grade inflation without consequences! Grade C or above at A level was basically the "door opener" in the 80s, now it seems that you need A and A*. Inevitable consequence I'm afraid.

I sat A levels in 1998, and have taught them for 20 years. I honestly don’t see grades being inflated or exams being easier - when I mark an A grade essay I feel it’s on a par with what I would have written. However the level of prep/teacher input is way different! We just basically got on with it, never saw a past paper or a mark scheme the whole time, did some essays, got them marked, that was it. My students have a month until their first exam and I’ve been worrying it’s not long enough etc - in my day I didn’t even start revising until a couple of weeks before! I got 3 As and the best results in my year too. But I wasn’t slogging, spending hours revising, given tips on study skills, poring over past papers and so on. For my subject as well, YouTube is AMAZING. Loads of detailed analysis, background information and the like that we just couldn’t have accessed.

Another 80s graduate from an RG university. Too many university students, too few apprenticeships.
I got a full grant because my parents were both pensioners - at best lower middle class but each from refugee/immigrant background. No student loan. Housing benefits. More affordable for the state because there were relatively so few students. University was NOT the preserve of the rich.

The problem with grade inflation is that it disadvantages the poor and who are clever the most.

If more people get A grades then Universities or employers have to go on other factors in deciding to give an offer or a job. Other factors such as relevant work experience (easier to get if you are wealthy and connected), extra curricular activities (easier if you have money), better social skills (easier if you live in a nice neighbourhood and haven't had positivity knocked out of you from a hard background).

The solution of positive discrimination against private schools is a blunt tool that doesn't factor in wealthy kids who have the above advantages but who went to a state / grammar.

I did A level English in 1984 and got a D despite putting all the work in, plenty of revision, etc - really couldn't have done more as I was very committed at the time, I got C grades in my other A levels, being Maths and Economics.

I did it again in 1998 as I needed a better grade for the entry/course of a masters level professional body qualification. I did it part time evening via the local college of FE at 2 hours per week, just did the bare minimum as I also had family and full time work to fit it around. All I needed was a C grade so didn't really take it too seriously, maybe another hour per week to do the "homework" they suggested and maybe a few hours in the weekends just before the exams.

I got an A!

So, between 1984 and 1998 there was definitely a dumbing down.

My brother got four As in Maths and the three sciences in 1990 and was seen as a child Einstein. I got AAB in my subjects the year before and had people stopping me on nights out to ask if it was true.

Most of our peers left school at 16, I estimate maybe 20% stayed on.

@1dayatatime

The problem with grade inflation is that it disadvantages the poor and who are clever the most.

I fully agree with that. It just ends up with selection/discrimination by other means.

In particular, I think medical schools have fallen foul of this, in that A/A* grades are now minimum requirements, so they are selecting on the basis of applicants who've done work experience in hospitals & care homes, applicants who've been well digging in Africa or litter picking on Everest, etc. Personally, I think part of the current NHS recruitment/retention problem is exactly this, i.e. the medical schools are selecting the "wrong" type of person, i.e. the people with money/connections who just want a highly paid job (eyes on the private consultant roles at £250k p.a.), rather than genuinely caring people.