Term time holidays and fines

[AlRRRR]

Hello,

so before I begin my question I’m just going to say that I work in education myself and I am a trained social worker. I I understand where the new policy has come from under the new schools bill act, wdh is going through Parliament at the minute on its third reading.

fines have been in place since 2013, and I totally understand why they are in place, I may not necessarily agree.

I understand that attendance is important and if children are missing too much education they are missing chance to have great development.

this year my child’s school has decided to get extra strict about the guidelines , they’ve had a meeting with the local safeguarding educational officer. together they’ve decided to revamp the attendance policy.

This new policy is only for my child school and the other school surrounding it in the same local authority have not adopted these guidelines. The school is not in a impoverished area, there are no major problems, so we are all very confused as to why this has come about.

it now includes the following;
A fine, which is not limited to a term time holiday, you will also get fined if your child has more than five days off a term even if this is due to illness. That is the first scary part.

secondly it has changed from getting a fine when you go away during term time to now being allowed to do this a maximum of three times and then you will face criminal court and a criminal record.

Thirdly attendance is now monitored every half term which means if your child is off more than twice during half term, they become a persistent absentee with referrals made to the educational safeguarding team healthcare teams and meetings in school.

fourthly if the child is late past 910 they will be marked as unauthorised absence for the entire day even though they arrived at 9:15. there is no late mark anymore just unauthorised absence for the entire day.

this is a blanket policy and includes children who are ill and children that have been asked to stay away from school for things like chickenpox.

I think there should be some kind of leniency for example maybe one week holiday a year in term time, holiday companies and the prices go up as much as 2 to 3 times, my child is half Portuguese and sometimes the only time we can see family is by taking one or two days of at the end of the term time. there was a difference of £1500 in total for a flight taken during the holidays versus two days before term ended.

The gap between rich and poor is further widening and parents who simply cannot afford the holiday prices will simply therefore not get to go anywhere? so basically if you are rich you can do whatever you want, you get as many holidays as you want you get private education and none of these threatening criminal records….

what are your thoughts?

In principle, I agree that parents who regularly take their children out of school for a holiday should face some sort of sanction.

What you describe ,OP, goes way beyond that though. What about long term illness, hospital treatment, chronic illness requiring frequent absence, a family emergency?

In primary school, I would have thought that, barring accidents and emergencies, most children should be at school on time. If dependent on buses in secondary school, that might be a different story.

Is this an LA school? I don't see how fining your child for being off sick or making a late child as a whole day unauthorised absence could be legal?

The paragraph that you linked to @AlRRRR doesn't sound unreasonable in itself. Can you post the what it has said about illness / lateness too?

It used to be a much more lenient policy, this year they’ve decided to lump all absence together,

it’s relatively new so perhaps they will not really enforce it if your child has medical issues?

The point is this three times Ama rule is only for this school, all the other schools around and in the next local authority every time you take your child out for more than five days you just receive the £60 fine, here what is difference is that they say if you do it more than three times within a six year period you first going to court and then receiving a criminal record…

for me this has gone a bit too far….

Can you imagine it

Judge/Magistrate: So Mr Jones you refused to pay the school fine and your child was off for, how long, 8 days (16 consecutive school sessions) Is that right?
Mr Jones: Yes, the school sent him home because he had a fever, which turned out to be an early symptom of chicken pox, he wasn’t allowed back in school until all the blisters had gone.
Judge/Magistrate : so why the fuck are you here?

Absolutely ridiculous, no court in its right mind would uphold any fines related from sickness, especially something a child is not allowed back into school because of contagion.

Have the school even cleared this with the LA?

Persistent absenteeism is now classed as ANY absences- whether authorised or not- below 90% Not school's choice, this is the new definition they have to work with. It's a bloody nightmare!

And yes, any child who arrives more than 30 minutes after the register closes is registered U- unauthorised so counts towards absence monitoring

Children should be in school. That's it. The school holidays wre very long, so there is no reason to miss any days in term time. Schools should actually be much tougher, because some kids are learning from their parents that education is not important.

My friend has 2 children in private school, and they can go anytime, no fines, no threats and they also get a home/ school link up whilst they’re away,

state schools, - it’s overboard.

I don’t disagree with children being in school and I think it’s essential. however because my child was sick with a very severe flu and ended up in hospital in September she is now classed as a persistent absentee. it has gone absolutely insane.

Plus the three times in the primary school period which last six years, he’s not being implemented nationwide and in fact it’s not been implemented in the whole local authority per say it is just between the local authority and my child’s school individually.

if this is a nationwide policy every single school should after have to adhere to it. My friends are still allowed to go on holiday once a year on authorised and just pay the fine whereas now we are threatened with criminal court if we do it more than three times in six years.

One holiday a year for a family that simply will never ever be able to afford the holiday prices during holiday times does a lot for the child’s mental well-being.

My thoughts are that the school hasn't got a clue what they are doing. They cannot set their own policy for fining parents. The Education (Penalty Notices) Regulations 2004 are still in force and will remain in force when the Schools Bill becomes law. Regulation 14 states that, "Any person issuing a penalty notice shall do so in accordance with the code of conduct drawn up by the local education authority". The school must follow the LA's code of conduct. They cannot ignore it and go their own way.

They cannot legally mark children who are genuinely sick as unauthorised absences. Any attempt to fine for a sickness absence is clearly unlawful. Any attempt to use sickness absences to count towards any threshold set by the local authority for issuing fines is also clearly unlawful.

The local safeguarding education officer should know better.

Yes it’s quite baffling! They’re going to get a lot of comeback from it.

illness is unavoidable, i’m guessing that they authorise it? but they do say if it is repeated and it’s too often they will start fining and it definitely does count towards attendance,

mind blowing stuff

Aren't the fines set by the local authority? If so is it happening at other schools? I would email the LA attendance officer and ask their view on the illness policy...

They cannot fine when absence is due to sickness - Education Act 1996 Section 444(2A). Any absence due to sickness must be treated as authorised - Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006 Regulation 6 (2)(b)(i). They could ask for evidence that sickness is genuine, but they can't count sickness towards attendance for the purposes of fines and they can't fine when a pupil is absent due to sickness. If they attempt to do so, the parents should take it to court. The school would lose and have to pay their costs.

Lots of schools don't explicitly say the 3x whilst here, but a lot will look between authorised and unauthorised by how and when previously they have had holiday in term time. It also says may, not will go to court.

Private schools also need to comply this year with notifying certain abscence to the LA.

What would be the procedure if parents lie about their child's illness? We have had numerous incidences when we know full well a child isn't ill and has gone away on holiday but if the parent says they're ill we apparently have to accept it.

How is this legal?

Unauthorised absence for being 15 minute late - they could be late for a number of reasons out of their (and their parents' control).

Sickness is unavoidable - cue covid for example. Sickness is also more likely in a deprived area due to poor diets/access to gym/ education around health so they are less likely to be able to pay.

The squeezed middle will be those of us suffering... those renting, working full time with debts and high bills etc who need a holiday but can't afford to go in school holidays.

No, the school doesn't have to accept it. If they have clear evidence the child isn't ill, it can be treated as unauthorised absence. If necessary, parents can be asked for evidence that their child is ill, e.g. a doctor's note. Schools shouldn't go over the top with this and demand evidence for every single sickness absence, but it is fine to do so where there is justification.

Persistent lateness can lead to fines. But, as per my previous posts, any school that treats genuine sickness as unauthorised absence and issues fines is acting unlawfully. The fines (which were introduced in 2004 - rather longer ago than the OP thinks) are intended to reduce persistent absence, not as a weapon to be used against the parents of sick children.

This is absolutely bonkers!

Our school asks for evidence of illness. For example a GP letter hospital attendance proof.

it really is a tricky one because I guess some parents do say their child is ill and then take them on holiday. this is why everybody is lumped into one category.

it does say that if your child is persistent ill they will refer you to the health teams, but there’s nothing they can actually do.

Nice to know the information about the private schools, but from this year they to have to report absence.

I think in an ideal world there should be something like five days leniency awarded to each parent and then anything over that you will be automatically fined. This would maybe give scope to take a flight which is that little bit cheaper just before term ends.

One thing I have heard is that a child ‘ is not entitled to a term time holiday‘ they are entitled to education. Which I of course agree with, but what about people in poverty, do they not get the chance to go away then? Is that only a father to those which have a lot of money?

hrm…

I’m an education welfare officer and I write attendance policies. schools don’t decide who gets fined- if you have more than 12 unauthorised holiday sessions in 12 weeks (am&pm = 2 sessions a day) then they can refer you for a penalty notice. We refer every family who this applies to unless it is for extreme reasons (eg attending a funeral abroad etc) however the local authority only uphold around half of these.

the local authority will not be in the slightest bit interested in an average child who has had a couple of days off ill. The school can refer all they like, but they will just insist on evidence/casework spanning months and months. We have maybe 100 persistent absent children, and realistically only 1 or 2 of those families will ever actually be fined. We have a much bigger group of persistent absentees who are eg. Young carers, have mental health issues, parent mh issues etc, and these families will also never be fined, they will be referred for support and supported in school. We still do the casework and send the letters but the chances of it being in the public interest to fine these parents is very small . In order to fine anyone, a referral is made and then a solicitor looks at detailed casework provided by the school, they will need to see repeated attempts by school to engage parents and child and see these being repeatedly ignored and flouted - not just a child with a cold one week and a tummy bug the next.

with regards to the unauthorised absent all day, I cannot see why a school would do this. If the child is late after registers close (whatever time school specifies in the policy) they get a U code (unauthorised late) which is an absent mark as the child was not physically present at register. However if they are present at pm reg, they would be marked present. They have to be, if they are physically there- what if there was a fire FFS?! personally I’d find out who the governor is for attendance and ask them to clarify that, both for the child’s attendance marks but also for safety purposes as the gov body would have ratified the policy before it came out to parents, therefore must have been aware of this addition

Why do these schools think it is ok to waste GP's time like this? The obsession with attendance is getting ridiculous! I think they're shooting themselves in the foot with the late policy too. If you're running late then you may as well not bother going in at all. Or what's to stop the kids walking out halfway through the day? "Check the register miss, I'm not here today."

So out of the whole new policy that they’re enforcing this 👇 is the part where you think there should be leniency? 🤦🏻‍♀️

I think there should be some kind of leniency for example maybe one week holiday a year in term time, holiday companies and the prices go up as much as 2 to 3 times, my child is half Portuguese and sometimes the only time we can see family is by taking one or two days of at the end of the term time. there was a difference of £1500 in total for a flight taken during the holidays versus two days before term ended.

This is bonkers because the maths doesnt work if you measure sickness on a half termly basis. If you have one "serious" bout of illness in the half term, it will be really hard to meet the 90% attendance rule.

My dd started Y7 promptly caught an absolutely vicious throat infection. She had a fever, couldnt eat and couldn't physically get out of bed and was off school for the entire week her 2nd week of school as her illness spanned the weekend.

This for a girl who had a total of 5 days sickness in her 7 years at primary school.

Parents cannot prevent kids being ill. It's crazy.