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Original poster

Oxbridge actively targeting private school pupils

483 replies

mumsqna · 31/10/2022 11:06

Read in the telegraph this week that oxbridge and some other top unis are actively trying to reduce the number of private school students they give offers to.

Right now it’s 72% to state and 28% private schools in Cambridge. I personally think it’s should be about 65% to 35%. After decades of free education there can’t be that many children in this country that are very bright that can realistically be classed as ‘disadvantaged’ imo. Most should be in homes that are the top 20% of household incomes for their region. Most of bright but disadvantage should be ethnic minorities coming from immigrant households.

I’m quite annoyed by this, it feels like some academics trying to force you into the state system. So put off I’ve just decided that they can fuck off as there are universities around the world.

like my drive to work comes from wanting to give my children the best education available in the world. Just feeling deflated.

OP posts:
hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:13

Brilliant, you’ve absolutely smashed it

No, Dorothea has not absolutely smashed it, because the numbers are made up, as Dorothea says. See my earlier post.

Exasperatednow · 31/10/2022 13:17

My daughter goes to LSE. You are 4.5 times more likely to get in in you were privately educated. I don't think private school educated children are 4.5 times more intelligent.

She's state educated but we paid for both of our kids to travel to school because local wasn't as good. Many families couldn't have afforded the cost - about £1200 per child.

Talipesmum · 31/10/2022 13:18

TomTraubertsBlues · 31/10/2022 13:00

No, they really won't. Not a high proportion.

There are plenty of careers undertaken by very intelligent people that don't pay enough to fund a couple of kids at private school.

Show quote history

Yes - I think you’re really overestimating the number of “intelligent people who can afford to / want to send their kids to private school”. Loads of people in my family are very intelligent. Quite a number went to Oxford or Cambridge, or other v good universities. Both my parents did. They were not in high earning professions at all (teachers etc). The only kids in my wider family who went to a paid for school are ones who had a special educational need eg autistic. - we all trusted in the education system and the clear benefits that our kids have anyway. We are not disadvantaged- but not private educated. It’s not the automatic thing that all people would aim to do, given half a chance!

I went to Cambridge. I am in a v well paid job as senior manager type. I don’t think I earn enough to send my children to private school, and it is not the norm for other highly smart people at my place of work either. And, while I wouldn’t have absolutely ruled it out as an option, I would always much prefer my kids to go to state school, as I don’t think it’s great to be in a bubble of privilege - you might end up thinking you “deserve” it - and that those who aren’t, don’t.

DontMakeMeShushYou · 31/10/2022 13:18

TomTraubertsBlues · 31/10/2022 13:00

No, they really won't. Not a high proportion.

There are plenty of careers undertaken by very intelligent people that don't pay enough to fund a couple of kids at private school.

Show quote history

This.

I can assure you that the vast majority of incredibly bright academics and researchers at the very institutions you so admire, do not earn enough to privately educate their own children. For example

SarahMused · 31/10/2022 13:19

As a state school teacher of many years my experience is that the very best state school and independent school applicants have usually got places. The difference has been with the more marginal candidates where the interview practice and other advantages that these schools can provide have skewed the advantage towards independent schools. This is now being redressed. For example, a math teacher colleague who was teaching A level maths and further maths at my school was also privately tutoring several pupils from local independent schools who were holding Oxbridge offers. Her opinion was that those students weren’t a patch on her own students.

Duchessofmuchness · 31/10/2022 13:19

Where is the evidence that state school students are getting in with lower grades? Vs equally deserving candidates getting a place? My understanding is that these "targets" to increase state school intake are probably being achieved by education of interviewers with regards to unconscious and conscious bias, increases outreach to state schools to encourage applications, supporting state students in the application and interview process etc. It's basically removed an advantage that private schools had and levelled the playing field.

Please can someone point me to the data re differences grades for admissions? (And I doubt this would be for state vs private ... if it exists it's more likely by some kind of measure of true disadvantage?)

Original poster
mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:19

Duchessofmuchness · 31/10/2022 12:48

OP Why 35% to private?

18% of 6th students are privately educated, so that's one benchmark and some might say fair. However on the other hand that might call into question whether state educated children are being give places they haven't earned through their excellent grades. A common complaint but one that doesn't seem supported by the facts.

76.9% of AAA grade or above went to state school students and 23.1% to private. And 73.7% of A star, A Star, A and above to state and 26.3% to independent. So that alone could be another benchmark? Just using A level grades maybe it would be fair to say 26% of places would be a fair comparison.

That's before any individual account might be taken of context of upbringing etc.

So 18% of kids, 26% of best grades which compares to 32% Oxford places. Seems like private still have an advantage?

It's true that the advantage since 2017 has declined. In 2017 58% of places went to state pupils and in 2021 it was 68%.

For additional context we are talking of a movement of only approx 200 places over that time period that used to be given to private and now go to state. Oxford in total only has about 2600 places for domestic students.

I have no inside knowledge here, simply going from the published info on the Oxford site.

Applying for and being accepted to top unis including Oxbridge is incredibly competitive. Sadly there are simply not enough places for the number of bright talented kids there are in all schools. Probably most students who apply from any background are unsuccessful. It seems incredibly unfair to suggest that state educated children are not getting there by merit and it doesn't seem to be the case from the statistics I'm reading.

I haven't read the article in the telegraph and think it must be behind the paywall. Were they suggesting unfair advantage to state school students? What data did they share to support it?

Ahh these are great statistics, thank you. Puts things into perspective. The telegraph articles largely focused on situations where kids are getting similar grades (think AAA vs A*AA) but schools having a policy to only pick the private kid if there were going to get a first or be an academic.

OP posts:
Original poster
mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:21

Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 31/10/2022 12:49

Dear OP.
After decades of free education there can’t be that many children in this country that are very bright that can realistically be classed as ‘disadvantaged’ imo.
For the person who wrote the above to accuse others of ignorance and lazy thinking is risible.

I said this about myself

OP posts:
GuyMontag · 31/10/2022 13:21

Honestly OP I think Jeremy Clarkson could help you and your kids. He's always on the Twitter talking about his own low quality a levels and he obviously has a lot of money. Not everyone can get into Oxford.

sheepdogdelight · 31/10/2022 13:24

hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:13

Brilliant, you’ve absolutely smashed it

No, Dorothea has not absolutely smashed it, because the numbers are made up, as Dorothea says. See my earlier post.

The number of children in the schools is, by and large, irrelevant.

What's relevant is the number of "bright" children.

No one is disputing that your average highly selective private school will have a higher proportion of children who are suitable for Oxbridge than a local average comp.

Someone up thread posted the proportion of children getting high A Level grades by sector. That would at least be a starting point for the desired proportion of state/private intake to Oxbridge. That's without even starting to consider if state school children may have underachieved.

Original poster
mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:26

hoooops · 31/10/2022 12:54

I’m not saying 35% should be reserved for private school kids, I’m saying 65% should be reserved for state school kids.
In the sense that we should be given a leg up to people.

This is the most mind-blowingly ignorant thing I think I've ever read on here.

OP, of all the students who get Astar Astar A or better at A level, around 75% of them are from the state sector (2019 figures).

Once more for the hard of thinking: ~75% of our brightest young people study at state schools. That's not making any allowances for it being harder to achieve top grades in the state sector.

So why on earth do you think that reserving 65% of places for them, which would mean excluding some of the very brightest in favour of stupider private school students, is in any way giving them a leg up?

Where Can I find those stats? What I’m seeing here right now is much percentage of independent schools puppies get A*/A grades
www.gov.uk/government/news/guide-to-as-and-a-level-results-in-england-summer-2022

OP posts:
Original poster
mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:27

DorotheaDiamond · 31/10/2022 12:51

@badbaduncle I'm not sure talking about the extreme cases (young carers etc) here is relevant - there probably aren't enough to affect the statistics, and they should obviously be judged on different criteria anyway. But equally you can't assume that all state pupils are disadvantaged compared to private pupils - there are plenty whose parents have bought properties in catchment/topped up with tutoring etc - and tbh all that will happen is that more people who could have gone private will do this if their kids are bright enough to aim for Oxbridge. Admissions needs to be on merit alone - some adjustment for private vs state maybe but not the blanket assumption that a pupil with an A" from state is better than one from private.

+1

OP posts:
GuyMontag · 31/10/2022 13:29

Or Cambridge

hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:33

Here you go - it's from the Oxford admission statistics report for 2021, section 4 'School type'

Oxbridge actively targeting private school pupils
Original poster
mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:33

@sheepdogdelight oh thank you. That makes quite a lot of sense. A lot of the info I’ve been seeing were around contextualised offers

OP posts:
DorotheaDiamond · 31/10/2022 13:36

hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:13

Brilliant, you’ve absolutely smashed it

No, Dorothea has not absolutely smashed it, because the numbers are made up, as Dorothea says. See my earlier post.

@hoooops i sort of agree with you - I wasn’t trying to prove any correct percentages just showing how the percentages change when you look at percentage of kids in private and the different profiles of their abilities!

correct proportion of private to Oxbridge is:

take number of students achieving entry standard from private. Divide by total number of people achieving entry standard (whatever that is for their school)

plus a fiddle for those who have obvious reasons for missing standard eg carers

i did it the long way round by starting from total kids and applying different proportions of private just as an example of how you can’t say 7% of kids are private so only 7% of Oxbridge should be private.

Duchessofmuchness · 31/10/2022 13:36

OP - stats you are looking at are the % grades by school type (so 58% A and above in independents). This shows you are more likely to get A grades going to independent . Oxford data is showing the % of all grades split between independent and state.

Other thing that stands out from the gov data you shared is the grad inflation since 2019!

hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:36

I just found the 2022 version:

Oxbridge actively targeting private school pupils
Duchessofmuchness · 31/10/2022 13:37

mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:33

@sheepdogdelight oh thank you. That makes quite a lot of sense. A lot of the info I’ve been seeing were around contextualised offers

Can you shared that data?

Original poster
mumsqna · 31/10/2022 13:38

@Duchessofmuchness your more likely to get a grades going independent or a higher percentage of independent schools are selective so they get left with more students who can get A grades

OP posts:
hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:38

I know Dorothea, you said the numbers were made up, it was the OP thinking the result of your calculation was a slam dunk that I found problematic.

hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:40

@mumsqna
Can you provide the data you have seen about contextualised offers?

TomTraubertsBlues · 31/10/2022 13:41

hoooops · 31/10/2022 13:13

Brilliant, you’ve absolutely smashed it

No, Dorothea has not absolutely smashed it, because the numbers are made up, as Dorothea says. See my earlier post.

Yes, this.

Meadowbreeze · 31/10/2022 13:44

Unpopular opinion but I actually think Oxbridge aren't going to be that popular in another generation or two. The reason why it's so elite was because the elite would go there. There's so many kids who do well and can't get jobs after uni as they don't have the networks. If the super privileged don't go to Oxbridge in large numbers, those networks go elsewhere, making it not that desirable.
As amazing as it is for hundreds of poor east London kids to get places, the UK's social mobility is just not structured like this. If they don't look, act and speak the part, those elite jobs won't want them anyway. The class system in this country won't be beaten by a few hundred graduates from Oxbridge. The rich will go elsewhere and take the network with them. It's easy enough when you look at the amount of public school kids now going to universities abroad.