Oxbridge actively targeting private school pupils

[mumsqna]

Read in the telegraph this week that oxbridge and some other top unis are actively trying to reduce the number of private school students they give offers to.

Right now it’s 72% to state and 28% private schools in Cambridge. I personally think it’s should be about 65% to 35%. After decades of free education there can’t be that many children in this country that are very bright that can realistically be classed as ‘disadvantaged’ imo. Most should be in homes that are the top 20% of household incomes for their region. Most of bright but disadvantage should be ethnic minorities coming from immigrant households.

I’m quite annoyed by this, it feels like some academics trying to force you into the state system. So put off I’ve just decided that they can fuck off as there are universities around the world.

like my drive to work comes from wanting to give my children the best education available in the world. Just feeling deflated.

@saladnights - well, of course everyone who is rejected has a right to feel disappointed. Nobody has ever said otherwise. To claim you have the right to feel more disappointed than other rejected candidates, however, is tantamount to saying you feel you deserved it more than all the other rejected candidates, which is tantamount to saying you think the system is unfair - ie you think that private school applicants deserve the spaces more than state educated applicants do.

@saladnights right back at you 😊. I teach at a crappy, city centre run down comp and have many students who are v bright, who also work their arses of to the get the grades, which they still need to get regardless of background. And they are equally disappointed when they don't get a place (not all of them do !).

Totally agree it's some idiots in the press trying to make it into some kind of us and them thing. But as a v few commenters on here have shown. People believe it.

@Walkaround yes, but where is the evidence that they are (en masse) claiming the right to be more disappointed? Some anecdotal stories, no doubt true (you'll find entitled parents in every walk of life!) - plus a lot of supposition whipped up by the media. But where is the actual evidence that large numbers of private school parents are actually saying this??

Obviously we have no idea what large numbers of private school parents are saying, but the more vocal disappointments are expressed in places like this, and that sense of entitlement never goes unchallenged here.

@saladnights - what on earth do you think this thread is about? 🤣 Where the media is trying to stir things up and it is patently succeeding in agitating some people enough for them to repeat the ludicrous claims of unfairness in social media, I will point out how farcical the claims of “unfairness” are. They are not, after all, claims that more private school parents are merely disappointed these days, are they?!

Really, it’s all about competition - not between the students, but between their parents. It used to be easy to beat the competition if you had a bright child and could afford school fees for the schools with a track record for sending lots of children to Oxford and Cambridge. Your children could be “groomed for greatness.” Now, it is only easy to beat the competition if your child is exceptionally bright, applies and is likely to get the expected grades. Everyone else, with merely very bright children, has to accept there are more people sufficiently talented to merit a place than there are places available, so not all suitable candidates will get in. The rejected children are no more deserving of places than those who were accepted, it’s just that some parents think they deserve to have a child at Oxford or Cambridge more than other parents do (because they think they paid for it and the others must have cheated).

Yes, I'm sure some do. And the OP is clearly one of them. Of course it's perfectly reasonable to challenge those opinions, just as it's reasonable for some posters to challenge the stereotypes trotted out about private school students and their families. The only point I'm trying to make is that there is a tendency towards extrapolation: most private school parents (the ones I've come across anyway) do not hold these views.

@Dancingdreamer they are not missing out on places because they went to the wrong school, just that these contextual systems have decided they are not good enough. It is never easy to hear you are not good enough. Oxbridge can’t take everybody.

@saladnights - it’s good to hear that most private school parents that you have come across do not feel this way. Imvho, the claims and articles are just examples of extreme right wing conspiracy theories and rabble rousing designed to destabilise and not to contribute to intelligent debate, so it’s not surprising if intelligent parents don’t buy into it.

@Dancingdreamer I am not sure why you are specifically quoting me and calling for compassion for disappointed private school DC who have the grades and don’t get offers. No schadenfreude here. I find it sad to think of any DC being disappointed about not getting a place they really want to study, irrespective of their school. However, I don’t think anyone can say they should have got a place at Oxbridge.. There are always far more impressive candidates than there are places at Oxbridge. That has been the case forever and should be the backdrop for anyone’s expectations when applying. . Surely you know that if you have close Oxbridge connections?

Also don't forget that only ~25% of the brightest young people in the UK are in private education. They are still over-represented in the Oxbridge intake.

Of course it's disappointing for anyone who is rejected, but I'm not sure why anyone should feel especially sorry for private school students. They are still getting in in higher numbers than they should, when you consider the numbers of super bright students in each sector.

As someone with a Cambridge degree (from a state school) I find this obsession with Oxbridge crazy. They are just another 2 universities, I can advise that the quality of the teaching is nothing special, and I haven't witnessed that my peers from Cambridge have excelled in their onwards careers relative to non-Oxbridge educated people. In fact often the opposite as people that can get into Oxbridge can sometimes be less rounded in important skills such as social skills etc.

Relax, people! If my kids want to apply then fine, but I certainly won't be pushing them into it!

@dallasdays I would second that. Most employers aren’t looking for academic genius - they want people who are “clever enough” but have a much more rounded set of skills that sometimes Oxbridge graduates lack…especially the sort of kids that are getting into Oxbridge nowadays who are sometimes very narrowly focused upon their specific area of academic interest (as they should be). Oxbridge is no longer a finishing school for the elite and I think that many private school parents recognise this and are therefore very happy to explore the other amazing universities out there, both in the UK and abroad.

I think what the minority of disgruntled private school parents (who seem to feel that they chose private school at just at just the wrong moment for their children) should do is put their minds to their grandchildren. What can they do now to help their ownchildren feel that they can make different choices to the ones they made, and chose state schools for your future grandchildren so that they don’t feel they have to pay an arm and a leg (I use state schools but we have good ones, so not being smug here, I accept they are not all equal.) Save your children their future pennies by actively finding some way to help the state sector’s future, campaign for better standards, campaign for better budgets and vote for governments that are going to do the right things for state schools. Make the future better for the children and grandchildren. Show your children what to do when life throws you lemons like you feel it has.

A question. If you think that the number of private and state school students who attend Oxbridge should be proportional to the number of children in private and state schools. Do you therefore believe that private schools offer no educational advantage over state schools?

Nope

No

No. Of course not. And that presents a difficulty, because the challenge in admissions becomes differentiating those who have been well taught and retain information that’s fed to them, versus those who haven’t received a good education but have bright, insightful, adaptable, capable minds.

Interviews help with this, particularly for the style of teaching as they allow for a ‘test run’ of a supervision. Well-educated students can present concepts that poorly educated students have never encountered. So instead the subject interviewer can present an concept the applicant is unfamiliar with and see how they grasp it, or look at a piece of work the applicant has supplied and present an alternative interpretation.

If the applicant responds with hostility to being challenged they’re likely not a good fit for supervisions. If they are receptive to being disagreed with, can quickly grasp the new idea, ask good clarifying questions, give a thoughtful or interesting response- they’re more likely to do well at Cambridge. They will have to do more preparatory work than their well-grounded peers but the ability to give thoughtful responses to a new concept isn’t something that can be taught. Ultimately you’re not looking for a good education but a good student.

Oxbridge colleges these days collect huge amounts of socio-economic data on applicants - based on postcode, school, previous school, whether looked after or not, whether receiving free school meals, etc etc. It is not all about whether you went to private school or not (although this is a big factor). If you live in a millionaires mansion and go to an elite state grammar then you won’t get any special treatment. If you live in a poor postcode and go to a school which hardly sends anyone to university, you will (probably an automatic interview, maybe a more accommodating offer).

They are also tracking outcomes. They already know that on average, state school pupils do better academically at Oxbridge than public school pupils. In general (there are always some exceptions) they are less entitled and they try harder. It’s hard to see why colleges would not be targeting state school pupils.

I think you need to come and see some other parts of the country then. It’s not the fault of the teachers but when DC can’t go to a school in a particular area because it sits in the territory of a rival gang, or when visitors are told not to put their bag down because it will get stolen (as I was), I think schools in some areas have got worse.

I’m just reporting what was said not assessing the candidates myself.

Same difference just an alternative way of articulating the facts.

I’m sorry if you feel I was unfairly quoting you. I was just trying to reply to your point. I actually think we are saying the same thing. There aren’t enough places for all the applicants and Oxbridge has to make a decision somehow. I have never said a private school person should get a place at Oxbridge either. I just said that many are now shunning Oxbridge in favour of other renowned universities abroad where they feel they will have more chance of success.

I just said that many are now shunning Oxbridge in favour of other renowned universities abroad where they feel they will have more chance of success.

It's obviously sensible to be realistic and not to apply to Oxbridge if you don't think you're good enough to get in. I'm not sure I would call that 'shunning' though.

If it is, I must start saying that's what my DS did - not bright enough to get into Oxbridge, so 'shunned' it in favour of Nottingham 😂

Sorry, but “shunning”? How petulant. Applying overseas does not preclude someone from also applying to UK universities. They are simply applying to universities where they can buy their space if they can’t get in entirely on merit. They don’t want to make the effort to apply to Oxbridge - too wealthy to bother.