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Oxbridge actively targeting private school pupils

483 replies

mumsqna · 31/10/2022 11:06

Read in the telegraph this week that oxbridge and some other top unis are actively trying to reduce the number of private school students they give offers to.

Right now it’s 72% to state and 28% private schools in Cambridge. I personally think it’s should be about 65% to 35%. After decades of free education there can’t be that many children in this country that are very bright that can realistically be classed as ‘disadvantaged’ imo. Most should be in homes that are the top 20% of household incomes for their region. Most of bright but disadvantage should be ethnic minorities coming from immigrant households.

I’m quite annoyed by this, it feels like some academics trying to force you into the state system. So put off I’ve just decided that they can fuck off as there are universities around the world.

like my drive to work comes from wanting to give my children the best education available in the world. Just feeling deflated.

OP posts:
generalh · 01/11/2022 16:07

I took a group of children to Oxford a few weeks ago. Shock horror, they were state educated children for a valley school with much deprivation. It was refreshing to hear that money shouldn't be a reason to not apply to Oxford.

mumsneedwine · 01/11/2022 16:22

And me. We've gone from no one even bothering to apply to getting 20+ in each year. Why ? Because they now believe they can, and the Unis actively make them believe they are welcome. Majority are PP and many are refugee backgrounds. Isn't it fab that they now get a great education, and may one day go on to run the country. Kids who understand real poverty and hardship.
Isn't it lovely that money can no longer buy privilege all the time.

NoTheToothFairyDidntDoIt · 01/11/2022 16:24

Someone has probably already covered all my points much better. But what the heck. If you're real OP, you're finally getting some of the data to show why the stats are the way they are. But here's the answer I didn't manage to send before!

I don't have the detailed evidence some of the other posters have linked to though I've seen much of it at some point.

This is long, OP.
Some of the earlier answers haven't really given you a fair hearing, and I'm trying to talk to the person I think you really are, and explain how I see this, and some of the factors behind this statistic.
If I were in your shoes, I might feel everyone was jumping on me although I don't think all of it is intentional. This is long and complex - some of these ideas just are.
If you really want to understand some of these factors please bear with me.
(Others, please don't jump on me - I've probably missed whole areas I haven't got experience of.
And misestimated the importance of different factors.
I'm afraid that's the social bubble effect.
And this is an explanation written mainly for the OP, who appears to be in a different social bubble and maybe hasn't been exposed to some of these ideas before.
If this comes across wrong - please bear in mind it is aimed at one person in particular. ).

I understand where you are coming from, OP, with your idea that the average cohort at private school is more intelligent that the average cohort at state school.
And actually, I think you are probably right for a variety of reasons I'm not discussing here.
But you have some blindspots regarding the students an elite university are probably after, and the correlation between wealth and intelligence in society.

There are a lot of careers which don't earn $$$$, but which demand extremely high levels of intelligence and focus.
As someone pointed out, university lecturers are at the cutting edge of furthering knowledge, but wouldn't be able/necessarily want to privately educate a child.
In fact, the really bright kids probably actively don't pick high paying careers.
(From my highly selective school, it was lower set pupils who went on to become lawyers and doctors - ie degrees which would fund private schooling.
The higher set students mainly took Natural Science, Maths and Engineering degrees, none of which pay particularly highly unless you make a sideways step into banking, etc.
So the very brightest pupils are disproportionately likely to state educate their children compared to the slightly less bright pupils.
Their criterion is typically more like "the most demanding work I can find, pays OK" not ""good pay, fairly interesting").

Then there are the children of parents all over the social continuum who would never consider a private school because that's not what they had.
Just not in the experience range.
They could earn a lot and not consider it.

And intelligence is all over the demographic spectrum too.
The brightest child I have ever met (at age 8 it was obvious he's heading for Oxbridge/equivalent maths - both the ability and the all-consuming, lasting interest) has a single mother who's a reflexologist and doesn't come across as smart.
In a similar vein, the child from my DC's old (state primary) class that I think is the most likely to get into Oxbridge has a tradesman father and a TA mother.
Their sibling is fairly similar. (3 from that class are bright enough they 'should' be considered by your metric, but only one has a decent chance as they have the organisation level to make it happen)
(BTW, yes, I can judge!).
And one of your respondents highlighted the 5 children in authority care who got into Oxford.

As a result, in some cities, the whole of the top sets of state comprehensive schools are made up of the children of parents educated at elite universities, and their intellectual peers, whatever their background.
There are comprehensive schools with 'self-study GCSE maths' sets - where the second sets are still predicted 8-9.

Your 'nature' fact - honestly, genetics is a bit more random than that: Statistics means only a percentage of children with parents right up the tail of the distribution are going to be as smart as the parents.
And there are a lot more 'average-plus' parents around.
Now let's say a child is likely to have +/- x IQ points compared to the parents based on random genetic factors popping in and out in combination, fetal exposure to medication/chemicals, placental nutrition factors, and a whole bunch of other stuff, what do you think the parents of a really bright child are typically going to be like?
An awful lot of them aren't going to be as bright as the child.
(Maybe the stars didn't line up for the parents but they do for the child)

NB - Please don't jump on my stats/genetics - it's not my specialist area and my point is that the intelligence of the parents does not predetermine the intelligence of a child to as great a degree as you might think.

(Nurture - sure, the private school will make sure fewer children under-perform their academic potential. 2 of the children in that class might get in...)

Then there is the effect of tutoring.
While it is easier now to tutor a child for selective school entry, that also means a bunch of kids at selective schools don't really deserve to be there. They might look bright on paper, they might get good exam grades because of high levels of support, but they really aren't anything special.
(I'd say the Oxbridge students probably weren't tutored but actually my local super selective private recently turned down 2 I think are future Oxbridge candidates.
They weren't tutored.
Maybe some of the selective schools are just picking the wrong kids ... ).

Oxbridge want a particular kind of focus and drive (dare I say, obsession) for the subject.
This is likely to be different from the skill sets / aptitudes which made many fee-paying parents their money.
"I want to earn well and have good status" and "I HAVE to do a job which fundamentally improves the knowledge of society and creates the technologies and science of tomorrow and where I am continually challenged" are very different attitudes.
Oxbridge probably want the latter.
Up to a point, intelligence will help you make more money and do a more complex job well.
But the people Oxbridge want may well not be in the private school system because their parents aren't wealthy, haven't considered it, or aren't interested in money and have self-selected their children out of it by career choice.
The fact that there are a vast number of "average-plus" intelligent children in the private school network does not mean there is a huge over-representation of Oxbridge-bright students there
(I'm not arguing there are not 'some' more, btw. ).

It's a very appealing idea that wealthy people are wealthy because they are intelligent.
(And, even therefore that poor people are mainly poor because they are stupid or lazy).
It's easy to believe, especially if what you are exposed to reinforces your views and if you see intelligent people around you working hard and earning well on a daily basis.
Many newspapers also reinforce this viewpoint.
I believed it when I was younger because it's what I was told.
And it 'makes sense' seen from that point of view.

The evidence actually shows that if a privately educated and a deprived child with the same grades get onto the same course, the deprived child outperforms the spoonfed child.
They are just a higher quality student in the first place - to get the grades they probably had to be hugely self-motivated and teach themselves an enormous amount if the teaching was sub-par.

The workload in the private system means an average student has learnt a lot more about what hard work is than an average state student. They'll get higher grades, they'll be more confident. This doesn't actually make them the student Oxbridge/similar want.

I'm actually not sure that universities are biasing against private students - but by bringing in entrance tests which test for the traits they want (subject relevant intelligence), it's now less likely for a highly supported child who is not so bright to get in.
If anything, the fact that state school students are less well supported and typically less confident suggests that private school students still have an advantage.
The confidence to bludgeon your way through an interview, finding more ways to approach a problem will stand a candidate in good stead, whereas a less confident student is more likely to fall at this hurdle and not show their real ability.
The exams now allow more of an objective look at the real ability of a student under standardised conditions and allow less confident but very bright students to shine.
(Actually the more confident students are probably less likely to be impaired by exam nerves again, but it's a start)
(Yes, the exams are tutorable, just like an 11+, but you do need to be at a certain level to even see what the questions are really asking).

Don't feel deflated, though - your privately educated children have more life experiences to draw on, higher confidence levels, a better social network for later in life, etc
They are probably less stressed - they haven't had to make their grades happen themselves, they have just had to do the homework they were set.
They probably still have an advantage in university interviews and honestly in their careers too.
Confidence takes people a long way.
It's just that the students that Oxbridge were after probably weren't present in private schools in the numbers you believed, because so many of them are in the state sector for all of the reasons I've mentioned and more that I'm not aware of or slipped my mind.
And this was always the case, it's just taken the colleges a while to figure it out.
And for that time, private school interview advantage and grade advantage meant that everyone assumed private school pupils must be the brightest.
And now the evidence is finally there to show that poorer students with weaker grades can perform better in their degrees.

I hope that highlights some of the factors which don't jump out at you as much as the idea "we're all bright, so we must have a hugely disproportionate number of Oxbridge students in our midst".
It's the most obvious idea, I agree, and a lot of people believe it but that doesn't mean it is necessarily right.

(Others, yes, I've missed stuff and simplified in areas.
This is long enough!)

ZandathePanda · 01/11/2022 16:25

mumsneedwine that’s lovely

hoooops · 01/11/2022 16:29

mumsneedwine · 01/11/2022 16:22

And me. We've gone from no one even bothering to apply to getting 20+ in each year. Why ? Because they now believe they can, and the Unis actively make them believe they are welcome. Majority are PP and many are refugee backgrounds. Isn't it fab that they now get a great education, and may one day go on to run the country. Kids who understand real poverty and hardship.
Isn't it lovely that money can no longer buy privilege all the time.

Hear hear to all of this

NoTheToothFairyDidntDoIt · 01/11/2022 16:38

mumsneedwine and others who posted similar. Really well done - wish I could give you that wine, you deserve it.

generalh · 01/11/2022 16:42

mumsneedwine · 01/11/2022 16:22

And me. We've gone from no one even bothering to apply to getting 20+ in each year. Why ? Because they now believe they can, and the Unis actively make them believe they are welcome. Majority are PP and many are refugee backgrounds. Isn't it fab that they now get a great education, and may one day go on to run the country. Kids who understand real poverty and hardship.
Isn't it lovely that money can no longer buy privilege all the time.

Absolutely.

mumsneedwine · 01/11/2022 16:53

Just to clarify 'contextual' meaning. These kids have all got a minimum of 2 A stars and an A, v often with an EPQ as well. They've achieved these grades while living in pretty poor conditions (not sure many Eton types have to share a bedroom with siblings on the 27th floor of a tower block). They also have jobs as they need money help their families eat. Oxbridge give amazing bursaries and are cheaper than other places which now make them more attractive to the disadvantaged. And their outreach programmes are fantastic.
So WP is not about lowering achievement, it's about widening the people allowed to participate. The clue is in the name 😊

DorotheaDiamond · 01/11/2022 19:29

Interested factoid listening to an admissions tutor talk from Cambridge today - they (specific college) admit private/state in almost the same proportion as the applications they get. Which would seem the best possible metric! The best way to increase the proportion of ultra bright state educated going to Oxbridge isn’t to fiddle with the admissions criteria - it’s to get them to apply in the first place!

Lilibobo · 01/11/2022 19:49

I’m a recent ish Oxbridge grad, my dad works for RAC and mum is a dinner lady.

I met more privately educated people there than I’ve known anywhere else in my whole life. And it made me bitter, tbh. Because you could see who had bought their place and who had earned it.

Lilibobo · 01/11/2022 19:55

DorotheaDiamond · 01/11/2022 19:29

Interested factoid listening to an admissions tutor talk from Cambridge today - they (specific college) admit private/state in almost the same proportion as the applications they get. Which would seem the best possible metric! The best way to increase the proportion of ultra bright state educated going to Oxbridge isn’t to fiddle with the admissions criteria - it’s to get them to apply in the first place!

This differs hugely college to college- sounds like my college which is why I chose it!! Sadly those that admit more state pupils tend to be the less wealthy colleges, so have less support to offer once they actually get there…

Dancingdreamer · 01/11/2022 20:58

It’s interesting to read this debate and here are my reflections. I’m not trying to say what is right or wrong, just offering my perspective as a state school educated, first in family to university mother who sent her children to private schools. Oxbridge have not largely replaced private school pupils, with the truly disadvantaged (with the honourable exception of a couple of the children in care mentioned before) but with grammar school students and a couple of high performing comprehensives that largely serve the middle classes. Given the fact that large areas of the country don’t offer anyone a grammar school, that means your have to be earning a fair whack of money to buy a home in the catchment for a good comprehensive. So state school exclude disadvantaged students as much as private schools. Even those students who have access to a grammar school have to have a family that can buy the tutoring necessary to prepare their DC for grammar school. I know some parents boast that their students needed no prep but they generally come from well educated households which can help these DC.

My uninspiring comprehensive school did not give me the grounding to prepare me even for my non-Oxbridge university nor the wider confidence and social skills that private schools give their students and are usually crucial for success in later life. I struggled on my course and I have always felt the lack of social capital all my life. Despite this, I have had a very successful career but I am the exception from my old school. I didn’t want my DC to have these struggles so I paid for their education. Now from my DC’s current experience, the brightest and best in their cohorts are largely avoiding Oxbridge (my Oxbridge DD and definitely not the brightest in her year group being an exception). Instead they are targeting other top universities like Imperial or Warwick or increasingly looking to the US. Why? Because they feel that Oxbridge no longer wants them. I have therefore seen some exceptional students who would have been an asset to this country now doing degree, largely in the US, and deciding to settle there. And those that went to non-Oxbridge universities? Well they are now benefitting from the fact that companies are starting to shun Oxbridge candidates in their race to prove that they are not elitist employers.

Lilibobo · 01/11/2022 21:09

Dancingdreamer · 01/11/2022 20:58

It’s interesting to read this debate and here are my reflections. I’m not trying to say what is right or wrong, just offering my perspective as a state school educated, first in family to university mother who sent her children to private schools. Oxbridge have not largely replaced private school pupils, with the truly disadvantaged (with the honourable exception of a couple of the children in care mentioned before) but with grammar school students and a couple of high performing comprehensives that largely serve the middle classes. Given the fact that large areas of the country don’t offer anyone a grammar school, that means your have to be earning a fair whack of money to buy a home in the catchment for a good comprehensive. So state school exclude disadvantaged students as much as private schools. Even those students who have access to a grammar school have to have a family that can buy the tutoring necessary to prepare their DC for grammar school. I know some parents boast that their students needed no prep but they generally come from well educated households which can help these DC.

My uninspiring comprehensive school did not give me the grounding to prepare me even for my non-Oxbridge university nor the wider confidence and social skills that private schools give their students and are usually crucial for success in later life. I struggled on my course and I have always felt the lack of social capital all my life. Despite this, I have had a very successful career but I am the exception from my old school. I didn’t want my DC to have these struggles so I paid for their education. Now from my DC’s current experience, the brightest and best in their cohorts are largely avoiding Oxbridge (my Oxbridge DD and definitely not the brightest in her year group being an exception). Instead they are targeting other top universities like Imperial or Warwick or increasingly looking to the US. Why? Because they feel that Oxbridge no longer wants them. I have therefore seen some exceptional students who would have been an asset to this country now doing degree, largely in the US, and deciding to settle there. And those that went to non-Oxbridge universities? Well they are now benefitting from the fact that companies are starting to shun Oxbridge candidates in their race to prove that they are not elitist employers.

Funny that they’re starting to shun Oxbridge to prove they aren’t elitist now of all times, when the number of state educated, non-white, less wealthy students is at its highest.

aka, when their kids can’t get in.

lechatsmiaou · 01/11/2022 21:34

Agree with a PP, the idea that all those state DC who achieve high grades have done so in spite of hardship is laughable. Where I live, there is a big tranche of patents (also quite heavily represented on MN) who very deliberately decide to do 'state school plus' instead of private - ie move to the catchment of a great school, invest in tutoring and extra curriculars and lifestyle/culture to 'fill in the gaps', use the money saved to buy a big inheritance house and save for uni fees, and then often denounce private schools as breeding grounds of privilege.

Similarly, the idea that all privately educated kids are identikit spoonfed 'little Ruperts' who have never had to face any challenges and couldn't possibly have achieved their grades in a state school, is equally laughable.

As a PP said, what the Oxbridge admissions process should seek to do is to identify those state school pupils who are genuinely brilliant but may have lacked opportunities so far, while also identifying those privately educated pupils who may have had huge privileges but actually would have done mazingly well regardless of their education, because they're genuinely brilluant. I don't think most private school parents on this thread are denying that the former deserve an Oxbridge place - all they're saying is that the latter do too.

lechatsmiaou · 01/11/2022 22:23

Incidentally, an article has just popped up on my phone saying that applications to Oxbridge and for the most competitive course (medicine etc) have just fallen for the first time in 8 years. Theories for the reason include the increase in the cost of living, and also the likely fall in the number of top grades next year following grade inflation during Covid. Will be interesting to what impact that has.

hoooops · 01/11/2022 22:58

Agree with a PP, the idea that all those state DC who achieve high grades have done so in spite of hardship is laughable.

Well, in relative hardship compared to private school students, no? I mean surely everyone agrees that state education is not as good as private, or why are you paying?

But luckily contextualisation is not as crude as state v private - it looks at your performance in the context of your school's performance. So students from high performing state schools are in the same position as students from high performing indies.

(Also you may have missed that Oxford admissions from the two most deprived ACORN categories have gone up by more than 60% over four years. Or are these MN parents now flocking to the most deprived parts of the country in order to game the system?)

Similarly, the idea that all privately educated kids are identikit spoonfed 'little Ruperts' who have never had to face any challenges and couldn't possibly have achieved their grades in a state school, is equally laughable.

I'm sure many of them could, but they (or their parents) have chosen not to risk finding out, so no one will ever know. If you were in admissions for a course that needs self motivation and resilience, would you choose the person who has demonstrated that they have those qualities, or the person who might have them but might not?

what the Oxbridge admissions process should seek to do is to identify those state school pupils who are genuinely brilliant but may have lacked opportunities so far, while also identifying those privately educated pupils who may have had huge privileges but actually would have done mazingly well regardless of their education, because they're genuinely brilluant

😂 it's not even that complicated - they are just looking for the best people. They have a lot of data about their applicants and a lot of data about how certain kinds of applicants tend to fare, and lots of experience in picking who they want. So rest easy. Your privately educated child will still have their unfair advantage, it's just smaller than it used to be.

Talipesmum · 01/11/2022 23:31

Great post, @NoTheToothFairyDidntDoIt

Tiggernpoo · 02/11/2022 06:34

I suggest some of the people on this thread pop over to the current Oxbridge 2023 applications thread….you can see invested supportive parenting in action and they come from all walks of life - state and private. Personally I don’t think we should be punishing parents for wanting the best for their kids, regardless of whatever form of support that takes. Surely we want a society that encourages this sort of parenting. It’s still
possible to give a leg up to those that need it without needing to feel bitter and twisted about other children’s more fortunate circumstances. At the end of the day these kids are all going to be out in the workforce together and encouraging your kids to develop a blanket hatred for all “rich kids” isn’t going to do them any favours in the long run!

mumsneedwine · 02/11/2022 06:57

Medicine applicants fell because a stupidly high number applied last year. So bit of a non story really. More are still applying than 5 years ago.
As more state school students apply, more will get in. Regardless of background or wealth, this is a good thing. They get in on merit, being the best candidates and this means less private school students will get places than before. I think Oxbridge means more to some people than others, and I know many private schools use their stats as a marketing tool, so it must be hard when your success rate drops.
Oxbridge colleges have developed a fantastic outreach programme for state schools and this has been why more now apply. They make it seem a nice place to be, not an elitist bunch of posh boys behaving like idiots.

mumsneedwine · 02/11/2022 07:03

@Tiggernpoo not sure anyone has said something about hating rich kids ? I think the thread was about giving some kind of preferential treatment to state kids, which is not what is happening. The privilege of being wealthy can no longer buy your way in quite as easily so that seems hard to take for SOME private school parents (& The Telegraph).
Big entrance exams today for some applicants so off to give some support. Their parents care a lot but many work 3 jobs and don't have the time to be quite so involved.

lechatsmiaou · 02/11/2022 07:35

Oh @hoooops , there's really no point in arguing with you. You seem determined to portray all state school children as kids who have triumphed over terrible schooling and all private school parents as utterly selfish bastards who are incapable of caring about anything other than their own child's privilege. Yes, of course I pay for my son's school because I think it's giving him a better education than the alternatives. So does every parent who enters their child for grammar, or moves for catchment, or simply makes a choice on their SCAF (though I can't assume that - perhaps you didn't, and deliberately asked for the worst school available to make absolutely sure that your kids weren't getting an advantage). But if you want to think the advantage of private school is uniquely unfair over every other form of privilege - fine, crack on.

I've no idea if my son will apply for Oxbridge. I suspect not. He's certainly got the raw academic potential (that was obvious in state primary, nothing to do with his private education later), and he may well get the grades if he works hard enough, but to be honest I don't think he's got the subject commitment and the ambition. If he wants to go for it then that's up to him and he will need to show he's got the drive.

In terms of what I want Oxbridge to do, it's to look at candidates as individuals and not make the kind of assumptions you do. Yes, that's hard. I want them to make allowances for underprivileged candidates (I find it offensive that you assume I'm not absolutely delighted that larger numbers of the most deprived kids are getting in) while also trying to spot the true talent among those from the most privileged backgrounds. Actually, I suspect that's absolutely what they are doing, so there's no 'problem' - it's the attitude of those who utterly stereotype private school pupils (often in very offensive terms) and use them as the focus for all their anti privilege ire while ignoring all other forms of privilege that irritate me just a touch.

hoooops · 02/11/2022 07:37

I don’t think we should be punishing parents for wanting the best for their kids

I must have missed that - have you seen this actually happening, parents being punished, or has it been suggested on the thread? Do you mean punishing parents for paying for their DC's education, or punishing parents for wanting an equal chance for their less privileged DC?

encouraging your kids to develop a blanket hatred for all “rich kids” isn’t going to do them any favours in the long run

Again I don't remember anyone suggesting that blanket hatred is a good thing, where is that? The thread is about the fairness or not of Oxbridge entry, not about money.

(Don't forget those MN cliches of so many impoverished private students on bursaries and the rich state students with all that tutoring!)

Tiggernpoo · 02/11/2022 08:23

“an elitist bunch of posh boys acting like idiots”? Probably one of the less insulting comments in this thread….

If people are going to be so vitriolic about the “privilege” of private school kids it’s only fair to point out that privilege (in the sense of entry into Oxbridge) is not always monetary. Read back through some of these posts and there’s a really nasty vibe going on - some people basically state that private school A stars are not worth as much and that they are “bought” not earned which I think is kind of insulting.

@mumsneedwine and @hoooops I never singled either of you out but the fact that you personally responded to me speaks volumes.

hoooops · 02/11/2022 08:47

Gosh such a lot to unpick here lechat

You seem determined to portray all state school children as kids who have triumphed over terrible schooling and all private school parents as utterly selfish bastards

Hm - I don't think so - what I do keep saying is that it's not about state v private, but about a child's performance in the context of their school cohort. (For Oxford anyway, I am always referring to Oxford because I know more about it than Cambridge).

This is how they figure out who has achieved despite terrible schooling and who maybe has better grades but is only top third in their school, instead of top handful. Either of these people could come from either sector, but the former is naturally more impressive than the latter. Who knows what would happen if you took all the kids in terrible schools and sent them to good ones, and took all the kids in good schools and sent them to terrible ones, that information isn't available. One of the downsides of inequality in education I guess.

So does every parent who enters their child for grammar, or moves for catchment, or simply makes a choice on their SCAF (though I can't assume that - perhaps you didn't, and deliberately asked for the worst school available to make absolutely sure that your kids weren't getting an advantage). But if you want to think the advantage of private school is uniquely unfair over every other form of privilege - fine, crack on.

Again I think you haven't understood how sophisticated the admissions system is. They don't just look at the name of the school and throw the ones from the indies in the bin. They look at several bits of contextual information, and the entrance test, and the personal statement, and interview. And then those with offers have to make them, the same offer for everyone.

For example and since you mentioned it, we don't have grammars here and didn't move for catchment, my DC went to their local comp, the one nearby that their primary school feeds into. Not that their type of school would be relevant for an Oxford application. But they have lots of advantages that would be relevant - they have not been in care, they do not live in a particularly deprived area, they do not live in an area of lowest progression to HE, their school's % of FSM is about average I think, they have never had free school meals themselves. One has GCSEs that are fine but not in the top bracket in his year, one has GCSEs that are really good compared to her peers.

If they applied to Oxford, they would be treated just the same as someone with this same contextual information who is at a private school. There is no distinction by school type or sector. Oxford is not discriminating against private school students. They only look at the performance of a school.

In terms of what I want Oxbridge to do, it's to look at candidates as individuals and not make the kind of assumptions you do.

This is exactly what they are trying to do with the info described above. There is also the opportunity to describe individual circumstances in the reference. They do not want to miss someone whose brilliance is hidden in shitty circumstances.

(I don't think I have made many assumptions, except that generally private education is better than state, which I don't think is particularly controversial.)

I find it offensive that you assume I'm not absolutely delighted that larger numbers of the most deprived kids are getting in

I didn't say or assume that - you brought up wealthy families sending their kids to state school as if that was somehow gaming the system and I thought you had missed (from earlier in the thread) that this isn't where the big increase in Oxford admissions is happening.

it's the attitude of those who utterly stereotype private school pupils (often in very offensive terms) and use them as the focus for all their anti privilege ire while ignoring all other forms of privilege that irritate me just a touch

Well I don't think I have stereotyped private school pupils or used offensive terms - I have though assumed relative educational advantage in the private sector in general. (NB remember Oxford don't make that assumption.) Others may have been offensive, I think I saw a "Rupert". There have been some fairly ignorant posts in the other direction suggesting things like private school students are more deserving because "they're grafters", and that students at a particular school can't be privileged because they are not white. People also get angry about inequality of opportunity. But I don't think it's been that unpleasant as these threads go.

The thread started because someone felt that private school students are being unfairly targeted, ie deliberately overlooked by Oxbridge. This is not the case. So we can all relax.

hoooops · 02/11/2022 08:56

I never singled either of you out but the fact that you personally responded to me speaks volumes.

@Tiggernpoo
😂 I mean, MN is a forum where people respond to each other, that's kind of the point!

If you are going to say stuff about punishing parents and encouraging hatred then you are probably going to be asked to back that up if people don't recognise it from the thread. Please can you point to those posts?

it’s only fair to point out that privilege (in the sense of entry into Oxbridge) is not always monetary

Yes, this has been pointed out. Oxford take all sorts of information into account (including neither money nor school type fwiw).