Rishis plan for education

[mids2019]

Compulsory maths and English until 18 under Sunak education reforms mol.im/a/11360205 via dailym.ai/android

So ok it's the DM but it seems the PMs plan for secondary education is to produce a baccalaureate type system forcing children to study maths and English to 18 and creating a greater focus
on vocational training.

Seems to me the style of education presented will be focused on the comprehensive sector leaving grammars and the independent to focus on academic variety to link to RG universities.

The idea if forcing students to take maths until 18 seems quite drastic as many arts specialists may not have a great mathematical strength and vice versa. STEM specialist for instance took physics, chemistry and maths at A level will potentially have to take English and those that do for instance doing English, English Lit and History would have add maths.

Do the older more academic universities wantthis necessarily?

@thing47

The correlation is strong - that is why more competitive universities set better grade thresholds - to attract better students. Then, when students miss the grades set, they often reject them, absent mitigating circumstances - put simply, if you massively miss your grades, it's a sign to the university that you might not keep up with the cohort. The cohort of kids with all A's are, on average, more able than the kids with the D's.

And the English course at Oxford is more testing than the one at Hull. I'm not being horrible, it's just a fact.

(Even a relatively standardised course like law is more testing at a Russell group university. Recruiters in city law therefore look at grade of degree and A level results to ensure everyone meets a minimum standard).

The correlation is strong - that is why more competitive universities set better grade thresholds - to attract better students.

Evidence please.

You keep making these sweeping statement but not providing any evidence....

There is already a Core Maths course that many schools offer, it's a great course and I'd be in favour of more students taking it. I'd also be in favour of scrapping A levels and moving to an IB system. Some grammers do it exclusively with great success. But it won't happen because the teachers needed don't exist, and the government have no plan for attracting more, so it's all a bit academic.

@motherofthelittlescreamingone

True. However to say that an Oford degree is held in higher esteem from one from Hull seems to be a heresy that is not commited in comprehensives in my experience Career and university choice advice seems to be quite universal and not differentiated for the student If a child aspires to go to a university other than the local new university they cc an be subject to claims of 'being above their statiion'.

The private and grammar schools witt a more academic intake accept university hierarchy as default and the parents of the students generally are well versed with professional careers and the options available with RG and expectations set accordingly

I am not saying this situation is correct but wo to kd argue against any ethos that prevent working class children rwac hi ibg their potential including false partity of HE institutions.

Schools should have the resources to support both high and low achievers and get the best out of everybody. FE is gr we at for some but let's not forget about the intelligence child from a modest background.

fashion, design, film and media studies, digital game development, sport science where the demand and future employment opportunities are dubious

@mids2019 Can I ask what makes you doubt that there will be demand in these industries in future?

They may be attracting better A level students, I accept that. What you haven't provided any evidence of whatsoever is that the best 18-year-olds are also the best 21 or 22 year-olds.

As @titchy says, absent any evidence I'm afraid all you're doing is offering an opinion. That is not data, however many times you say it.

@hoooops

There is demand; the problem is that these fields will be competitive and the sad thing is when careers become competitive employers use filters often based on university e.g. law

Fashion design will have a demand always but you can't do an FE course and expect to the next Chanel. There is an honesty about say bricklaying in that you will probably get a job in the fiels you specialised in

For anyone doubting that film and media is a good field to get into, read this article:

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/04/how-pound-slump-could-spark-3bn-film-and-tv-investment-boom

”The industry body the British Film Institute (BFI) has estimated that the film and TV industry will need 27,000 new full-time recruits by 2025 to keep pace with the current level of growth in productions being made in the UK.”

For comparison there were 43000 people recruited as teachers in 2021 and 7000 new solicitors registered so this is hardly a narrow and highly competitive industry. With up to £7bn a year being spent on film and tv production it’s crazy to dismiss film and media as Mickey Mouse courses (especially as the House of Mouse is currently paying many people in this country a lot of money!)

Ok @thing47 and @titchy

Believe what you want to believe, but it isn't magic that lots of careers are dominated by red brick university graduates. Or some kind of mad nepotism designed to work against people who did badly in their A Levels.

If you get a D in English, you go to university lacking some skills in analysis and essay writing compared with someone who gets an A. To suggest that the average lower ranked university somehow manages to catch most students up over the three years is pretty fanciful. Indeed, based on the average number of assignments in law (which is the subject I know best), most lower ranked universities don't ask for as much from their students. Some won't even have had an essay marked in their first term.

And you can look up the entry requirements of graduate courses in law (and others) - in law, they have a minimum A level / UCAS tariff, because it is an academic profession. Obviously, law is an extreme, but it's pretty standard in many city careers.

Personally I got As for GCSE English and then went on to do Maths and Sciences at A Level and University. I'm sure there are lots of people in the same boat and the reverse. I don't see the value in continuing the non favoured subject any further if literacy/numeracy is already good and if it's not HE colleges already do GCSE resits or functional courses.

And yet still you show no actual evidence....

Go on then @titchy

Show me that an English degree from Oxford Brookes is in fact as good as one from Oxford. Students are of exactly the same calibre by the end and it is just employers who are being misled by historic cache. Handing in at least one essay a week and being taught in weekly or twice weekly tutorials as well as lectures is entirely immaterial. Hull should have similar success but it is discriminated against.

Doesn't seem to bear out in my professional life or circle, but I'd be delighted to see it - means I can literally say to my kids at 14 that they can flunk their A levels and just stick a pin in the UCAS book, it is all the same really

Prove it.

There is demand; the problem is that these fields will be competitive and the sad thing is when careers become competitive employers use filters often based on university e.g. law

I still don't get it - why is that sad for these courses? It comes across as a bit patronising imo. Lots of careers are competitive - of course the unis that are well-regarded by employers in these industries will be different from the unis that attract people recruiting future lawyers. Different unis have reputations in different subject areas.

Fashion design will have a demand always but you can't do an FE course and expect to the next Chanel. There is an honesty about say bricklaying in that you will probably get a job in the fiels you specialised in

Does anyone actually say that you can do an FE course and be the next Chanel? Do you not think there are super competitive degree courses in fashion, and established paths for education and training? This is a multi billion pound industry employing thousands of people in the UK. You sound a bit out of touch here.

People do better (and have better developed brains) in every aspect of their lives if they keep up with maths for longer. If you’re not good at maths you can still benefit from this.

Im not a fan of RS but this I can get behind.

I don't know anything about law @motherofthelittlescreamingone , and only a little bit about City financial careers, so happy to bow to your greater knowledge of those professions. But I do know a fair amount about property development and town planning and about journalism (DH is a writer) and in neither of those professions would an Oxbridge degree confer any huge advantage.

I also remain sceptical about the relevance of A levels in job applications from people who have degrees – I just don't think many recruiters are interested in anything but your most recent qualification. DD2 is currently applying for PhDs having recently acquired a first-class Masters and not one has been remotely interested in even her first degree let alone her A levels; they are solely looking at her Masters study and more specifically her research and dissertation.

In the dark days of O Levels and CSEs my school taught O Level and CSE maths but they also had CSE 'commercial arithmetic'.

We talk about 'maths' but I believe there should be an option for arithmetic as well, so budgeting, tax etc would be covered in the arithmetic.

This sounds great, wish I had had something similar as part of my education.

@thing47

I'm not sure it is relevant to all degrees. But A Levels will be relevant to quite a lot of graduate positions, given that they are often applied for before someone finishes their actual degree.

It;l never happen, or at least not for a long time.

There isn't the staffing available to do it, especially in Maths.
Before stating more people have to do maths longer he'd have to find a way to train the maths teachers, recruit them and retain them. And no, having sabbaticals won't help that either!

I want this ☝️ to happen properly with no stigma attached

I think it sounds good . I like the thinking outside the box .

No child should leave school not reading and writing . The other thing I would do is that no child leaves school without going into a job , higher education or vocational training / apprenticeship. School to the dole office would not be an option .

Yes - but to produce what, we’re sadly not making anything so very few jobs lined up to go to.

Could hire from overseas? Could pay people to do it for a short time following school/university/get tech firms or finance firms to sponsor training.