Do you think you can be a socialist and

[Swedes]

1. Pay for your child to be independently educated?
2. Buy a house in right catchment for the right school?
3. Feign religion to get your child into a faith school?
4. Object to a lottery system for school places with urban areas (ignoring all convenient environmental issues)?
5. Vote Tory? (because some people seem particularly confused)

I'm too pretty to be a WOHM - you workers must all be mooses.

"Not weird. It's good for weird left wing people to realise how most people think and how the capitalist world (i.e. most of the planet) operates."

Xenia - As a weird left wing person I would like to say that I do understand how the capitalist world operates. I understand that capitalism (as much as socialism) is a failed system. The lucky few, those with extreme power and therefore extreme wealth are riding high on capitalism. The rest of us are, ultimately, being f**cked over by it.

The lust for continuous economic growth at any cost is resulting in death and environmental disaster.

Capitalism promotes war to keep the arms industry in profit. Capitalism sends sick americans to their death because the insurance companies see paying their shareholders as a higher priority than paying hospital bills for their policy holders.

I understand capitalism, I understand it stinks and I understand it keeps people ignorant, poor and sick so that the powerful, wealthy few can continue to remain powerful and wealthy.

I am availabe for children's parties and secular weddings. I will not do bahmitzvah's, christenings or any other event based around archaic, irrelevent, religious lunacy.

Thank you and goodnight.

Capitalism is just human nature which we can never change. I understand capitalism too and it can work well. I only used the word weird because it was used to me. The average person in the UK is a huge lot better under capitalism than they would be if they lived in a purely communist state.

And they'd be better off under Socialism than Fascism, Your point is...?

I didn't say you were weird, Xenia! I said your arguments could come across as weird, and I wasn't sure if that's because you were being deliberately provocative and thereby inconsistent.

I reckon the most functional, least bruising economic system would a capitalist one tempered by socialist principles. Which is essentially what we have in this country.

Those who argue for frankly one or the other are maybe not people see things in shades of grey, and are therefore not very realistic. And really I think that running a country is a very hard thing to do. It's nice to phantacize what we would all do if we were in charge, but I thank my lucky stars I am NOT in charge.

I agree Duchesse. Social Democracy. Where we have gone wrong in this country is to allow the imperative for profit to overrule all other concerns. So shared resources such as water, transport etc which should be owned by the people are driven to make shareholders rich. We moan about anbtisocial behaviour on buses... pay a conductor, rather than taking away all human interaction to cut costs. We moan about hospital cleanliness... stop outsourcing it to private contractors. Accept that sometimes (to use a Xenia-ism ) you have to pay a little more, to get a better service. And stop lining shareholders pockets at the expense of that service.

I may go and live in Sweden. The weather surely can't be any bloody worse either.

I'm glad you mentioned shareholders, Dadada. I mean, I understand about investment being the vector for growth bla bla bla, but does every share dealing not come with the "can go down as well as up" motto? So why they blankety blank are we bailing out shareholders at the tax payers' expense so repeatedly? (was about to say state does not get share of profits, although now I come to think of it, it does, via taxation on income- so maybe bailing out the odd crash here and there is a price worth paying for continued investment in UK businesses.)

< / rant >

It appears from today's papers even just to balance the books and keep things going as they are we need huge tax increases, the Government is being advise such a mess do labour make of the economy and the debt Brown has got us into with spend spend spend.

Personally, I don't think socialism and capitalism need be mutually exclusive.

I consider myself to be a socialist. DH is even more left-wing than me. We chose an independent school and it doesn't offend my principles one little bit.

My political ideals are not about wanting everyone to be the same nor expecting everyone to be equal. They are about everyone having access to basic necessities.

These are my basic political 'wants';
1)That no-one is forced or expected to live in sub-standard housing.
2)That no-one is living in hunger or even just getting by in terms of food.
3)That all children have a right to a decent standard of education within reasonable reach of their home.
4)That everyone has access to a decent standard of healthcare within a reasonable reach of their home.

I think political ideologies need to be pragmatic. When socialism came into being it was about tackling appalling poverty and nationalisation was part of that. Different times call for different approaches.

I wanted to add that I have spoken with people who shares my ideals, yet call themselves Conservatives. Ideology is open to interpretation, I think.

Cushioncover - If you're a socialist, I'm a Zulu warrior.

Why? Genuine question. Do you not think what I believe is socialism?

xenia said, "Capitalism is just human nature which we can never change."

This is right - but human nature is extremely complex and policies can be made that go with the grain of our more benevolent natures, than say with our more competitive natures - all are still human nature and cooperation and competition are actaully two sides of the same coin. They work best in equilibrum and it is the endless sway of politics in a liberal democracy to try and maintain that equlibrium as best as possible. It is liberal democracy that works, capitalism needs to be tamed by liberal democracy - with sustainable policies, etc, as we can see what untamed capitalism is capable of (Enron and multible examples).

The average person is better off in liberal democacy, but capitalism is the engine of society, not the society. It can be recalibrated to work better - for the common good - as liberal democracy is all about. As Carl Sagan says in Shadows fo Forgotten Ancestors, ?If we do not know what we are capable of?then we do not know what to watch out for, which human propensities to encourage, and which to guard against.?

Cushion cover

If you are a socialist I am a Belgian

Why??????????????
Tell me why? Please?
Is my list not that of a socialist?
I am no way, not ever never, a Tory!

Ignore them, they're teasing cushioncover . As you want to combine Capitalism with the social aspects of state intervention, you sound like an old fashioned, wishy washy social democrat like me. Or, as you put it, a pragmatist. Sadly, that road has ultimately led to New Labour and bugger all change...

I think you'd find few people in the UK who would disagree with your list. Also it is in the interests of us all that people are reasonably well housed and fed. I don't think that's socialist at all.

But you might well believe in socialism. Socialism includes things like very high taxes on high incomes and IHT so that no one ends up being that wealthy with fewer differences between rich and poor. It is redistributive of wealth. It also usually means quite a bit of state control and state provision of things, the state as provider rather than individuals organising things themselves.

Well cushion sounds like a lot of people, including me, but I would never have described myself as a socialist. Although I would describe myself as a social democrat. I think the two terms are very different but in this age of the third way, everything seems so fuzzy.

Anyhow cushion, you can't be a socialist unless you wear a donkey jacket and belong to a trade union.

Cushion "I have spoken with people who shares my ideals, yet call themselves Conservatives"
Well go to the foot of my stairs.

I like the one who earns well into 6 figures but would prefer to have less and have a fairer society but has an expensive boden habit

That's about the size of socialism today , just saying you want a fairer society

Come again? What's wrong with saying I want a fairer society?
Everyone needs clothes, Nigel. I don't think Boden sale goods are classed as designer label...? If it's only the lower paid who would vote for a fairer society, then we really are stuffed. The idea that the relatively poor want to redistrbute wealth (to themselves) and the relatively well off want to keep their wealth to themselves, that's what I find so depressing.

Well, Cam, I guess that's me other that the wanting to have less. I don't want to have less. It's just that I'm happy to pay more tax to ensure that others don't have quite so little. Of course it's just lip-service until someone offers it up as an election policy, then I'll vote for them. (I know the Lib Dems talked about 1p on IT) I don't feel that I need to be active to genuinely hold the principles.

Xenia, I'm well aware that my list isn't the extent of socialism nor does it contain the 'nationalist' element. I know all about socialism and its origins. My great grandfather was one of the 'Red Clydesiders' (Founding memebers of the Labour party in Scotland) My grandfather (his son)was also a TU leader. It's in my blood but I don't feel I've abandoned their core principles.

Look, I'm affluent, I'm not denying that. Nor am I denying that I enjoy the choices it affords me. But I certainly don't want anyone else to have to live in the sort of poverty I grew up in.

Xenia, you and I are looking at it from a different perspective. You don't want those situations listed because you feel it would be bad for the country as a whole. You see the 'poor' as a generic group who could pull themselves up if they tried. I can't bear the thought of people being cold and hungry through circumstances that they mostly have no control over. I think this country should be ashamed that over 3million children live below the poverty line.
Xenia, are you sure you aren't Ruth Lee?

Dadada&Quattro, thank you. Socialism and Social Democracy, for me, seem to have fuzzed into one in recent times.

Swedes, that sounds like a telling off but I don't know what it means, sorry.