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Original poster

Would you pay for private education when there is a very good state alternative?

660 replies

alfiesbabe · 12/01/2008 14:29

I know this is a contentious issue, but am really interested to hear other people's views. Our situation: have just moved DS (Yr 9)from private to local state school. (His choice). He had been on a scholarship as a chorister, and finished in the choir, but money wasn't an issue as DH teaches in the private school so we paid peanuts for fees. DS is really happy and likes the wider range of students. He is in top sets for most subjects and reports back that the work is more challenging and behaviour better than was the case in his previous class. He gets less homework, but to my mind what he does get is more relevant (eg in maths he might get set 5 questions to test that he has understood a teaching point, whereas at the private school he'd be set several pages of the same type of question). Results wise, the private school had 85% 5 A-C passes, the state school had 72%. Bearing in mind the state school has the full ability range, whereas the private school is selective, this smacks to me of better teaching in the state school. It seems like a very small difference considering parents are paying about 12K a year for the private school. A-level results are similar - statistically the private school is a little better, but not by much. The private school offers more in the way of music and sport; but DS has gone as far as he wants with music for the moment and isnt bothered about sport. I'm not looking for validation of our choice - we know we've made the right decision - but I'm left with this feeling of 'What were we actually paying school fees for?' The experience as a chorister was valuable, but I can't get my head round parents who pay the full whack, specially if their child isnt musical or sporty. I'm aware that our local state school is outstanding and we're very lucky in this respect. So.... why WOULD anyone pay for private in this situation?

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Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:10

This is why I pay

High academic standards (selective)
Small class sizes (DS is in Yr 3 and has 17 in class)
Good mix of faiths and colours and creeds
Good music provision
Good sports provision
Everyone keen and motivated to work or they get weeded out
Lots of books everywhere

I am happy with my choice. If the ranters are happy with theirs, why are they ranting?

ScienceTeacher · 19/01/2008 23:10

Well then, yes it's worth it.

Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:16

'If the ranters are happy with theirs, why are they ranting? ' - I guess a lot of the people who've posted on here aren't in such a fortunate position as you (to be able to afford a private education,) or myself (to be able to afford it as have huge discount but have decided that the state school is better). And they recognise that essentially, the education system is divisive and unfair and doesnt really belong in the 21st century. I guess that's why they're ranting. And tbh, I can see their point!

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Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:17

Nah Alfie. You're looking for validation/ S'okay, we all do that.

FWIW I think that factors affecting children attaining high educational standards are

the family's educational background (principally the mother's apparently)
willingness to learn
good educational environment
their peer group

There is nothing to say that those cannot exist within the state system. I am taking insurance though. Makes me feel I've pretty well done all that I can do.

evelynrose · 19/01/2008 23:18

Seeker, I may need to move my DC to a new primary school which does indeed have a before and after school club and which busses in children from surrounding villages, so yes some state schools do cater for full time working parents. It's also a good point that at secondary level, children can look after themselves to a greater degree.
If you have a good state school alternative, then I think you either need to be extremely rich (or have some very wealthy grandparents as is often the case these days) or just plain mad to send your children to private school. For our 3 children it would be a minimum of £45,000 per annum out of taxed income! I want a balance in my life- house, car, pension, holidays, hobbies- not spending every spare penny on the pretty buildings and smaller class sizes of a private school and worrying every month as to whether we can afford to keep them there.
Having said that, it would have to be a good state school.
With regard to Oxbridge, a lot of private schools moan about "state school bias". I think if you are forking out thousands of pounds on fees there is a tendancy to put down and see the worst in the state sector to justify your decision.

Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:20

Nah Quattro. Watch my lips - I have a choice. We have a huge staff discount. My son was at the private school. If I thought (and he thought) it was better he'd have stayed there.

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ElenyaTuesday · 19/01/2008 23:21

I agree, evelynrose, that you'd have to be mad to pay for private education if you have a good state school as an alternative. But everyone's definition of a "good" state school differs and lots of us don't have one nearby anyway!!!!

Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:21

It's interesting that you say the current system is divisive and unfair

By saying this you are acknowledging that the education can be better in the private system

Which is contrary to your opening position but that is incidental

But I agree with the central point that the system is divisive and unfair. I think all private schools and faith schools should be abolished, I think that tons more money should be spent on ensuring a high standard of education everywhere, but this is not the world we are living in right now, so I just muddle through.

Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:21

Seriously, I realise I'm in a fortunate position to have a choice. As I said at the start of the thread. The reality for MOST people is that they don't have a choice.

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scottishmummy · 19/01/2008 23:23

evelynrose any specific MN exampes or is this your anecdotal opinion of "put down and see the worst in the state sector to justify your decision."

Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:25

'It's interesting that you say the current system is divisive and unfair

By saying this you are acknowledging that the education can be better in the private system'
I am purely acknowledging that the education system is unfair (as we all know) because parents do not have a real choice. There ARE sink schools, and equally there are excellent state schools where many parents are priced out of the catchment area. To assume from my comment that I MUST be referring to private education being inherently 'better' merely displays your own prejudice Quattro

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evelynrose · 19/01/2008 23:27

Alfie, I think your points about the broader educational picture are very fair and well made. Our education system is the most divisive in the world I think. I attended private schools from the age of 3 to 18 and it was obvious to me as a schoolgirl how unfair it was. There was a really interesting article by a top headmaster (Anthony Selsdon of Wellington College??) recently who had the guts to admit this and basically say that "yes I'm in the system and it sucks". Good for him.

Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:28

"If you have a good state school alternative, then I think you either need to be extremely rich (or have some very wealthy grandparents as is often the case these days) or just plain mad to send your children to private school."

I guess we all have different views as to what constitutes adequate educational provision. If there were a good option near me, believe you me I would have taken it in preference to paying out a fortune out of taxed income. No grandparental assistance here btw, good idea though, shall start dropping hints

scottishmummy · 19/01/2008 23:29

well i lived in a scheme went to a rubbish school, so romanticising state schools is puerile too

Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:31

You change your argument with every post, Alfie.

Either we are all mad to spend the money, in which case why does it bother you, or the private system can offer a better standard of education.

Which is it?

seeker · 19/01/2008 23:35

Ok, now I'm going to launch off on a different tack. I genuinely believe that it is wrong to have an independent sector - particularly one that gets such substantial tax breaks because of its "charitable" status. I believe passionately in the state system, but I am not naive enough to think that everyone is in the fortunate position that I am - with excellent state provision on my doorstep. I do believe that while the "movers and shakers' in the country don't have to let their little darlings go to the sink comp down the road, they will not be motivated to make things better for the people who don't have choices. And I also believe that the "public school system" perpetuates an old fashioned and class based society. The "old school tie" is a garotte strangling change at birth.
Don't believe me? Read Xenia's posts and tell me I'm not talking sense!
(Sorry Xenia - but you are more than capable of arguing your corner or I wouldn't have named you!)

Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:35

That's interesting evelyn. I think once you're in the private school system, you simply 'live it' unquestioningly - it becomes your life, and it's very easy to live in this protected 'bubble'. So it takes a brave person to stand back objectively and say 'Yeap, I'm in it and it's not fair or right'. My DH, as I stated in the OP, has been teaching in a private school (following many years in the state sector). It's been a real eye opener for him. A lot easier (though some parents can be very difficult - the 'I'm paying so why can't my darling get straight A grades type'). But he wants a challenge now, and has got a promotion back into the state sector. Very interesting having seen both sides......

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Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:37

Quattro I havent changed my argument at all. I havent said private education is better. I HAVE said that the education system in this country is unfair and divisive, as I explained above. Nothing contradictory there at all!!

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Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:38

And seeker, yes, the 'charitable status' thing is a total scam!

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Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:39

So now it's an act of bravery to go into the state system? What nonsense.

Seeker I think you are right in principle. I would say though that parents who are taking their children out of the state system have actually paid for state education through their taxes. So we do pay twice ...

Quattrocento · 19/01/2008 23:40

Alfie, would you please answer the question

Either we are all mad to spend the money, in which case why does it bother you, or the private system can offer a better standard of education

Which is it?

ScienceTeacher · 19/01/2008 23:41

Why do independent schools make the education system unfair, Alfie?

Seeker, the tax breaks are significantly lower than the savings to the taxpayer by not taking up school places. Financially, trying to eradicate charitible status is totally crazy.

scottishmummy · 19/01/2008 23:42

parents utilising independent sector continue to pay taxes for a place they don't use -altruistic paying for a non derived benefit

evelynrose · 19/01/2008 23:44

I agree alfie. My uncle in law got a double first from Cambridge and went into teaching. His own boarding/public school wanted him to come back and teach there but he refused, staying in the state sector for over 30 years, where he has helped thousands of bright pupils get to university who might otherwise have not got there. It's just having a social conscience I guess.

Original poster
alfiesbabe · 19/01/2008 23:45

THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY IS INHERENTLY UNFAIR. MANY HIGHLY ACHIEVING SCHOOLS BECOME INACCESSIBLE TO A LARGE NUMBER OF CHILDREN BECAUSE HOUSE PRICES ARE PUSHED UP AND THE CATCHMENT AREA IS PRICED OUT OF THE REACH OF MANY PEOPLE. THEREFORE FOR A LOT OF PARENTS THERE IS NO DECENT REAL CHOICE. I'm sorry Quattro if you don't understand, but I really can't think of a simpler way to put it!

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