Would you pay for private education when there is a very good state alternative?

[alfiesbabe]

I know this is a contentious issue, but am really interested to hear other people's views. Our situation: have just moved DS (Yr 9)from private to local state school. (His choice). He had been on a scholarship as a chorister, and finished in the choir, but money wasn't an issue as DH teaches in the private school so we paid peanuts for fees. DS is really happy and likes the wider range of students. He is in top sets for most subjects and reports back that the work is more challenging and behaviour better than was the case in his previous class. He gets less homework, but to my mind what he does get is more relevant (eg in maths he might get set 5 questions to test that he has understood a teaching point, whereas at the private school he'd be set several pages of the same type of question). Results wise, the private school had 85% 5 A-C passes, the state school had 72%. Bearing in mind the state school has the full ability range, whereas the private school is selective, this smacks to me of better teaching in the state school. It seems like a very small difference considering parents are paying about 12K a year for the private school. A-level results are similar - statistically the private school is a little better, but not by much. The private school offers more in the way of music and sport; but DS has gone as far as he wants with music for the moment and isnt bothered about sport. I'm not looking for validation of our choice - we know we've made the right decision - but I'm left with this feeling of 'What were we actually paying school fees for?' The experience as a chorister was valuable, but I can't get my head round parents who pay the full whack, specially if their child isnt musical or sporty. I'm aware that our local state school is outstanding and we're very lucky in this respect. So.... why WOULD anyone pay for private in this situation?

I went to look at the State alternatives and to be honest I quite liked what I saw. The pupils were lovely, the teachers were lovely, the buildings and facilities were lovely. It's just a shame they offer such a crappy education.

Fair enough Marina. You're right, i would far prefer a hardworking school with a difficult intake, than a complacent, bored staff with a middle class, all-English-speakers intake.

The schools in Greenwich are probably like the ones where I grew up in Birmingham and where my brothers still live and whose children attend said schools so yes, I would.

Eltham is pants (I live there) in a way that very few other parts of London can achieve umlellala. Probably why it is affordable
The same depressing vibe extends well in to Bexley mind you, it's not all LB Greenwich's fault

Yeah, well that's South London for you

spokette's London stuff is all very interesting. Backs up my feelings about what happens - must be worse in London than elsewhere, but all cities have the curse to some extent. There is a process of self-selection for the "good" schools going on, and no immediately obvious way out of it. How are the "bad" schools ever going to get "better" if people studiously avoid them at all costs?

I was so holding back on "but Tottenham and Hackney are North of the river" but now you said it...

I can see why so many people who can afford private schools, choose them. But I'd love to know what, if money were an issue, what would they go without/what lengths would they go to to give their kids those opportunities? Slight hi-jack here, but I think it's relevant.

Clam - I think you make a very good point.

The average day school place for high school in the UK (it is more in and around London but we'll ignnore that as wages are much more too) is probabably about £10,000 per annum (out of taxed income). What gross salary would you feel you need to earn to be able to afford it?

a) For one child?
b) For two children?

Umlellala i spoke to a teacher at my dd's state grammar school - middle class but actually due to the nature of grammar school entry quite a social/racial mix

he was new to the school and blown away by the work produced
some kids really work very hard to get into these schools off their own bats and yes i know grammars are different..

Paula, I am not sure I understand your point?
Lots of children from a variety of social and racial backgrounds work hard and/or are smart in all different types of schools.

where we live there is an excellent state school where 80%
score a-c at gcse

the a level score is 893.8 for those that know about these things!

I am guilty of abusing what i have been offered as i sent my children 8 miles down the road to selective grammars where the score is 100% at gcse
with a-level scores of 1088.6

HOWEVER an awful lot of our towns population send their kids 10 miles the other way to a private school with gcse scores of 98% and a level scores SO similar to local high school 949

there is only one explanation (amongst those who pass for the grammar or do not sit it) and to me it is sheer snobbery ...

Oh I see.
Yes, I believe for some people there is an amount of snobbery (and perhaps lack of confidence?). It does seem also that amongst certain groups of people, private school is the 'automatic' option. For me, we wouldn't really consider it but I am sure if you mix in circles where everybody you know went/sends their children to private school it's harder to go against the grain so to speak.

PaulaYates - But there's a bit more to it than just points at GCSE and A level.

You get the same no of points for an A level A grade in PE, photography, film & TV studies, media studies, maths, chemistry, history and latin.

people quote sports facilities etc but i am not sure i agree
sure - the school looks great lovely paneling etc

i do think kids emerge from the private sector with an inner confidence - whether this stems from the very obvious knowledge that they have what others dont - i am unsure

Not sure I like the sound of the sort of confidence that is about having what others don't.......

i am probably making assumptions
xenia would say it is about the proliferation of debating societies!

My DSs have been part schooled in independent sector. I'd like to say I'm not a snob - at least not in the "I love boaters and stripey blazers" and "Annabelle will mix with her sort of people" way. But I could probably be described as an educational snob as I've paid for DS1 to go to premier league academic independent secondary - because he is very academic and that school seemed exactly right for him and I've paid for DS2 to go to an independent sixth form so that he can be in small classes and start to catch up on what he has not picked up in large (OK, sometimes disruptive) classes in his sought after primary and comprehensive. All our circumstances are different and we all want to do what is best for our children, based probably on our own experiences at school.

Some people seem very unable to see that there can and is other reasons for using private school over a good (ie academic results/OFSTED) state school.

Here are some:

• wrap around care such as breakfast and after school clubs
• ethos
• behavour records
• range of extra curricular or enhancement type subjects
• location of scool compared to alternatives
• conveinence
• gut feelig on visiting tem all
• provision for children with differing needs - SEN, high ability, other needs

Also paying out or private is not really any different, morally speaking, to moving to the catchment of a good state school! Infact t could be argued as being worse as you are using up a space that another child might have had had you not moved; wheras if you go pivate you are freeing up a place for someone else in that state school.

And reverse snobbery is definitely just as bad as snobbery itself!

behaviour records - well isn;t this just because as mummy an daddy are paying the child behaves?

or is it that there re no social problems as 'riff raff' dont go private

Hulababy, I understand what you are saying, but I won't be moving for catchments or anything. Dd will just go to the nearest.
It will be fine

the best sen school is a different one entirely (state) in our area infact i do know a family where 3 out of 4 went private and the 4th child who had ds went state

hulaby a lot of those things are only relevant to primary

Possibly, but many people make that decision at primary level and then just leave their child in the same system at secondary - staying with friends, known system, etc. which makes sense.

Behaviour can be down too many things. I do think private schools often do more to stop poor behaviour, and that state schools ahve less powers to deal with it effectively. I don't think that parents paying for it would have much impact on a child TBH - the threat of stronger sanctions from the school may do though.

Yup, private schools can kick you out a hell of a lot easier than state schools (speaking as someone who teaches those who are kicked out).

Private schools can kick problematic pupils out very effectively. State schools may appear to do this, but effectively are just trading pupils with their neighbouring schools in the hope of getting a child who is receptive to a fresh start.