GDST class size?

[SurreyFree]

DD goes to Sutton High Prep School where recently class sizes have nearly doubled in the last year. Years 4, 5 and 6 are currently 23-24 per class. We moved to Sutton high based on promises of small class sizes as advertised on their school website. Little did we know how misleading this was….

Sutton High has historically struggled to fill class sizes but due to the pandemic, like many private schools around this area, they have seen a high number of applications.

When I raised this issue with the head, she said that GDST policy was max class size is 24. Nowhere in the school prospectus is this stated and when asked about quote on website, she said this is an average small class size where the small EYFS class size averages down the larger class sizes in the upper prep school.

On top of this, the classrooms are so small that the girls have difficulty going to the loo and sometimes need to crawl out. There is no TA. Only one teacher for all 24 girls.

I felt my complaint fell on deaf ears with the head referring to GDST policy, claiming to be out of her hands but I was surprised to hear from different GDST schools that they had lower class size limit. For example, Oxford GDST state on their website “on average class size are around 16. We seek to keep it under 20". Anyone else who goes to a GDST school that has class sizes less than 24 so I can take it up with the head again? Thank you.

GDST senior school here - I think you’ll need to specify prep as at DD’s she’s in a form of 24, yet maths class of 10, English class of 16, French class of 16 and all others of 24.

I do find it astonishing that girls have to ‘crawl’ out of the classroom to go to the loo and frankly would be focusing my ire at that point. Are they literally on all fours crawling across a classroom? Seems unbelievable.

That’s interesting to know about senior school, thank you. No smaller classes for us for core subjects such as Maths and English or in fact any other subjects. The girls do different work according to their ability but in the same class so not sure that we’ll that works.

Crawling out seems very drastic but I think my DD doesn’t mean all the way but parts of it or when she would have to ask lots of girls to stand up so she could get through. It is very cramped indeed!

I would like to add that the teachers are lovely and make such an effort but sadly I don’t feel there are enough of them to match the increased number of children.

The class sizes are determined by more than Gdst policy they will also have to adhere to class room sizes etc. Historically they have kept them at or around 20 as an average but after falling numbers for a few years most of the schools will happily take the extra 4 per class if the space allows. Doubt the head would have any choice over this especially if the girls meet the entry exam requirements

I originally thought the head had little choice but I was surprised to see Oxford High GDST as well have a class size of 16, max 20. They have fantastic results so I assume they have many applications with girls meeting the entry exam requirements but have decided to keep a lower class size limit. This is the reason for the thread to see if any other GDST have smaller class size limit than 24 to strengthen my argument for when I go see the head.

Our GDST prep used to split when it got to 20.

Some of the old classrooms were odd shapes and DD1 said in her maths class when they got to 18 she could not see the board / screen because she was in the back corner . We left at the end of that year..

DD was at GDST school it was well publicised that class size was 20 to Y2 then 24 from Y3 onwards - it allowed for them to have a natural intake at Y3 with the extra spaces. They were always full. There was furore one year when class went upto 25 for one term. DD then moved to a state secondary which had a class size of 27 so not much difference.

PettsWoodParadise can I ask please what were the differences and pros and cons of the state secondary compared to the GDST junior?

I used to teach at one of the south London GDST schools (secondary). My key stage 3 classes had 27 or 28 pupils in. This was around ten years ago, to be fair, so things may have changed since then.

Maximum class size of 24 sounds correct to me. The average I've experienced as a teacher is 16-20 but classrooms can fit up to 24.
Compared to state schools where class sizes are 34...

@MrPickles73

PettsWoodParadise can I ask please what were the differences and pros and cons of the state secondary compared to the GDST junior?

The private junior school had good (but not brilliant) specialist teaching for science, maths and art. DD left part way through Y6 due to bullying, she didn't have the designer clothes, didn't go on posh holidays and walked to school rather than driven and whilst trying just didn't fit in .

She loves her secondary school, it is a grammar. They are all lovely girls and difference is celebrated and brings them together rather than separates them. On the behaviour angle it is probably just about school compared to school rather than private vs state, it could happen anywhere, but for the specialist teaching that is the thing you wouldn't find in most state primaries. I do wonder if it was money best spent, I had to scrimp and used up all my savings. We knew we could never afford private secondary but had too much equity in our house to qualify for a bursary.

I 'think' DD would have thrived at the local state primary but she was so ready to go to school at 3 we sent her to a pre-reception at a different (non-GDST) private school and she loved it and we found ourselves looped into the private sector, she stayed at that school until start of Y3 and then moved to the GDST school. Neither my husband or I had much knowledge of the private system so we probably made some rookie errors in being taken in by the swimming pool and nice buildings.

Her teachers are far more responsive and supportive at the grammar than they ever were at the GDST. DD still has some friends from her old GDST days and I am shocked and saddened at what has happened to some of the girls and what they are getting upto. Some escaped to her grammar sixth form so she has had a recent update of news on that front.

I’m at a GDST school. From years 7 - 11, classes vary from 10 to 24. 24 is the maximum size for a form group but they are smaller in specific subjects.

If it's difficult for a child to get out of the room to go to the toilet, I think questions need asking about fire safety...

Which year is your daughter in @SurreyFree ? Is she in year 6?
Our DD is starting y7 there and the Headmistress was really clear in her talks that maximum sizes are 24 - still a lot smaller than our local state school. My son had 31 in his y4 class. I think schools have to be financially secure, so it’ll be to make sure it’s all affordable. I was pleased that the school is thriving and growing and seems to be getting lots of investment to create new buildings, so maybe the rooms will be getting bigger with the new buildings - I think one of the buildings is for the primary school, so perhaps classrooms will be moved around. We looked around a lot for our daughter in y5 and thought about moving her, but year 6 was already full so I’m not surprised today that year has big classes - that’s fairly typical after y3 in all through schools because people join to go to the high school. We toured the primary school in 2020 and the rooms looked fine - not too small at all (definitely bigger than at DD’s prep at least) and class sizes seemed similar to DD’s school (in Wimbledon) - about 22 in a class. dS now in a private school and his classes are 24, so I think that’s about normal. We also looked at Putney High and Wimbledon high and their classes were 24/25. I think these are still ‘small class sizes’ and I think with the issues facing private schools at the moment, I’m just pleased to be joining a school that seems to be ok and will still be around in five years. Some of the smaller local schools (we visited Seaton House (class of 20) and Collingwood (tiny school) may well not survive given the current circumstances. Is your daughter otherwise happy at the school? We’ve only heard good things and our DD is excited to start in September - I wish we’d moved her sooner TBH

That’s interesting to know about 22 in Wimbledon. May I ask if that was Wimbledon High GDST?

Local schools such as CLFS, Downsend, Aberdour, Reigate Grammar, Chinthurst are all max 20 with parental pressure keep them around 18 especially for the prep level (before Y7). It seems individual GDST schools can choose to maintain a smaller class size with 24 as the maximum. I am glad to hear senior school head made the class size very clear. I was told “we maintain small class sizes” when the class size was 14-16ish so never did I think the max was 24.

We are generally happy with the school but I do think they need a TA for core subjects with these numbers given that they do not break out into smaller groups like in the senior school. I also think the head of prep is not as strong as the senior head and lacks the individual touch. Sometimes I wonder if she even knows my daughter’s name….but with 24 per class….we come from a school where the headmistress knew the names of all pupils, siblings and most parents!

Hi @SurreyFree - no we were at another Wimbledon prep, but we’ve seriously looked around most local prep schools as three kids! Wimbledon high had classes of 24 in year 5 when we visited in 2020. We also looked at CLFs for our son and my notes sat 22.
Which year is your daughter in?
Your opinion of the primary head is totally not our experience. She was so kind when we met her and seemed to know every kid that we passed on our tour! The parents we have met have all said how lovely she is and how the girls all know her. It’s one of the things we liked most about the school back in year 5, but as I say, we left it too late and y6 ended up full before we made our decision. Now we are looking for our younger daughter and we were told the year next year is two classes of about 18 - I think maybe this is just a year 6 issue - is that the year your daughter is in? When did she join the school? If it is year 6 then I think it’ll be the same everywhere in all through schools as people now want to avoid 11plus. Year 6 in Putney was 25 in a class when we visited!
Reigate grammar doesn’t take prep does it? The other schools you mentioned - I doubt it’s parental pressure keeping numbers down? Certainly Aberdoir was struggling when we looked at it. Good to hear your daughter is otherwise happy though - I don’t think many schools have a TA in older years though. I didn’t even realise that was an option!

@SurreyFree
You might like to know that research always shows that quality of teaching is far more important than class size. An excellent teacher really won’t have an issue with 24 motivated and well behaved DDs. I would far rather have 24 with a great teacher than 16 with a poor one. Class size is hugely over inflated with regards to results and progress. If you like everything else about the school, I would not get hung up on this.

Schools can raise the bar for exam success too. They can reduce intake but as these tend to be cheaper schools, income would be drastically reduced. With the cost of teachers’ pensions biting, they need to stay solvent. My guess is that 24 in a class is the price.

I agree with everything you say but as I mentioned before, Oxford High GDST have an average class of 16 max 20 with excellent results. This is published on their official website. Croydon high GDST I hear is less than 24. I just struggle to understand why Sutton can’t do the same when they have smaller grounds.

Competition for school places in London far far outweighs the competition for places in Oxford. 16 might be their max in terms of physical space and also just their expected number of girls who pass the entrance exam well enough. I live nearby and most parents are very happy with the local state school offerings.

I work at a school nearby to Oxford where the max class size is 18. Most classes are well below this. It's a good totally non selective school, we have good results, but the demand isn't there every year. Usually we have about 13/14.

I've taught in schools with classes of 22/24 and classes of 30. I absolutely do know and totally support each and every child in my classes. I actually think a class of 22/24 is ideal. 16-18 can be too small. You can get a few groups of friends, maybe 3 groups of 4 friends and a few get left out. The social dynamic, especially with girls is always better in larger classes.

These girls will all be working at a similar academic base level. Yes a TA would be great but the girls will be absolutely fine. It's not as if they are going to have a core group of really weak students who need support every single lesson. In my experience from teaching in academically selective schools, the support we give the pupils is very evenly spread as they all have a basic level of understanding and competence. So if someone struggles a little I need to give them a few minutes of my time to set them up and offer some assistance, I can then move on to another group or child and return to them later, knowing they are supporting themselves to a degree. Does that make sense?

In my state school experience, the TA just sits with the lowest ability children (usually 5/6) of them and the teacher manages the rest. And this works fine! The TA obviously helps a lot with general crowd control and behaviour management but you won't need this to such a degree with the smaller classes and the hopefully impeccable behaviour of the girls (🤣).

So that's my two pennies. You'll get good results.

If she's struggling and needs more 1:1 then move her to a school with smaller class sizes by all means but smaller class sizes do not automatically = the very best results

@SurreyFree
I would guess it’s because of overheads. So salaries of staff, pension payments and maybe maintenance costs or building replacements or even generous bursaries. Lots of things might make a difference.

Yes I meant to add that too. The overheads in Oxford will be much much smaller. Pay alone for teachers in London is far higher.

That’s really interesting. Thank you for sharing. I feel more at ease with that information. In fact, thank you everyone for sharing.

GDST are not offering the Teachers Pension scheme to new recruits. They obviously need to save money.

There is massive variation between GDST schools. They aren’t homogenous in many respects (except being day schools for girls).

I would be surprised if there is a ‘policy’ for class sizes that is consistently implemented across the Trust.

They will just be smaller classes than most state schools.