School funding - is it decided on pupil numbers on a particular date?

[MGMidget]

I am curious about whether the amount of funding a school receives depends on the number of pupils on the roll on a particular date in the year? If so, does anyone know when approx that date is inthe year?

I am curious because I am trying to move my daughter into a state academy school near me that is officially full according to the council’s admissions team. I found out during a tour that they had spaces in my daughter’s year group at one of the school’s sites. As a result I now have an offer by tooing and frooing between the school academy’s admissions team and the council. However, I was told that the other school’s site (which was my preferred location) was full. The day after we get the offer, DH then happens to be chatting to a Dad of a child in the same year group at our preferred school site and they mention that there are 27 children in his daughter’s class (maximum class size is 30). Obviously this might be wrong information and the class might be full with 30 children but if it is right I wondered if schools had no incentives to fill vacant places at this time of year because all their funding has been allocated? My DD is in year 2 so I know the year 2 school teachers will be pre-occupied with KS1 SATS next term. I don’t know if they would be less keen to take in new children at that stage in case they bring down their average SATs scores? Are schools reluctant to take in new pupils at certain times because of exams and any key dates for funding?

Just trying to work out if a school might deny they have spaces when they do? Our preferred site is very popular and they would fill the spaces quite easily but I am wondering if they are holding back until September to declare they have spaces for some reason?

Does anyone know how the system works?

The admission of your child will have nothing to do with funding
Don’t listen to other parents and hearsay

Funding for the next academic year is based on number of pupils on the October census. So no, there's no incentive to hold empty places, schools want full classes.

OP
If you are even thinking this about the school for your daughter

It really isn’t the school for you

Dont agree NdefH81. I have contadictory info from a parent so I am trying to work out if there is anything behind it. Frankly, having observed many postings on a local forum about this school I would say they have a lot of parents who can be quite vocal and challenging. I am probably a pussy cat in comparison so not concerned it is the wrong school for us. I am happy enough with the site we have been offered but would have preferred the other site if available. It looks like they must have all the places allocated then even if a parent doesnt know about it.

Yes but I’d always trust the school first and foremost as they have the complete picture

Whereas the parent is talking about what is the case just for them. And this isn’t a friend. It’s a dad that your dh just got talking to. So you have absolutely no idea re validity of what he’s saying or the detail behind his application.

I would not think for a moment that my childrens school was trying to “play the system” re admission numbers and funding

And if I did - I wouldn’t want them to go there

Schools want full classes asap. This is likely just poor admin.

I should say, poor admin at worst or misinformation from the parent. The other places may already be gone but the new students don't start until next term for instance. Parents rarely have full visibility on these points.

Some school classrooms can only fit 27 children - has there always been 27 and what is the pan for the school. Maximum infant class size is 30, but physical space can also affect numbers. Taking your child now wouldn't affect their sats either way and funding for the year is decided from previous October, although infant meals is decided termly.

There is a set date in early October when there is a school census. The schools you are talking about are academies so the number on the register of the school in October 2021 will contribute heavily to the funding the school get from September 2022. If the school was a local authority named school then the October 2021 census would inform funding for the next financial year which starts on 1st April 2022.

There might be situations where a school will try and retain pupils on the register until after the October census because that means they receive the funding in the next financial year, whereas the school where a pupil moves to will not get a direct funding for that pupil until after the next October census.

Thanks everyone for enlightening me. Admission, I can see why a school wouldn’t have much incentive to fill mid-year vacancies before the following September if an October date is the one that matters for funding calculations.

Classrooms arent small and the official class size is 30.

An update: today the local authority admission department contacted me to advise they couldn’t offer me a place in either of my chosen schools because they are full, so offered an alternative further away. I had chased them up last week because I had found out one of these schools had spaces on one of their sites during a school tour. They said school had told them they were full and they check with the schools once a week for an update. They also said they would contact them to check again. Then I was contacted by one of these schools with an offer which I have accepted. Now the council tell me they cant offer a place in that school because it’s full. www.mumsnet.com/emo/te/9.gif.pagespeed.ce.TUei7x3YMQ.gif
Both my chosen schools manage their own admissions but are supposed to tell the local authority when they have spaces.

It could just be administrative error. However, there are some circumstances that still make me wonder. It looks like there is no financial benefit to taking a new applicant at this time of year if funding is fixed in October. There are possible downsides with KS1 sats coming up imminently at my daughters age if newcomers demand more teacher time. I can see how a school might be reluctant to put the burden of new joiners on teachers if they are under pressure to show a good SATs performance. No benefit to school if they can easily fill places in September and get the financial benefits of doing so in October! My DD is joining the less popular of the two sites where there seem to be quite a few vacancies so they may not so easily fill them in September.

I am sorted, pretty much, having got one of my chosen schools through direct liaison, (albeit not the site I would have preferred) but I am a bit bewildered by the system where the local authority doesnt know there are vacancies!

All I can suggest is if you are applying to a school outside of the usual entry stage and that school manages its own admissions make sure to liaise with the school and not rely on a local authority application!

You are putting a LOT of faith in the brief chat your husband had with a parent that neither you nor him previously knew!

They dont have anything to do with the council thinking there were no vacancies when there apparently were!

@MGMidget

They dont have anything to do with the council thinking there were no vacancies when there apparently were!

yes, according to random dad who don’t know!

But you have taken it as gospel

Eh no, council contacted me to say no vacancies when said school had made me an offer. No random involved there!

Also DH does vaguely know the person. We see them regularly at the weekend as the children are in the same sport club.

Good luck OP

Hi

we have this at work all the time. There are a few things:

1. as PP mentioned - there is a census in October from which funding is calculated - we find a combination of Census and beginning of term mean that schools are more willing to accept children in September and are then full afterwards - particularly academies.

1. people who show you round don't necessarily know where you are on the waiting list - yes there might be a space or spaces but they could be going to children above you on the waiting list meaning that there arent actually any vacancies for you

1. Outside the main intakes at Rec & Y7 PAN doesn't actually exist and a school can decide it is full when they want to - so they can say they are full when there are less than 30 in a class. Some schools will deliberately over offer at Y7 knowing that there wil be some shedding and they don't replace anyone when they leave at all. Some of out academies will not take anyone other than EHCP or Fair Access cases. Harder to defend at appeal but they can successfully defend the decision to say they are full.

OP if you appeal for a place at the school you want, the school will have to justify to the panel why they can't take an extra student. If each class has 30 students it will be easy for them to make that case (at least in infants where 30 is a legal limit), but if it doesn't they will have to fully explain their reasons for not filling the class.

But as a pp said, maybe the three places are already offered to others. It could also be that they have taken a few out of each class for small group intervention. For example, they might have 3 classes of 27 and one of 9, with the smaller group needing intensive support.

Thank you everyone. Schooladmission and deededo, the points you make sound plausible. It was the admissions lady who said there they were full in the other site. Of course she should know but the points you both make would be plausible reasons why they might have a class of 27 and still be 'full' in an infant class. However, they seem to keep children with ECHPs in the classroom with a dedicated teaching assistant so having three in a class out of the class all the time so much so that they don't appear on the class list doesn't really tally with how the school presents themselves and what the head said on the tour.

However, if academies can say they are 'full' when they have less than 30 then that is quite possibly what is happening. As it is a year 2 class with the KS1 Sats imminent I was wondering if they would want to avoid a new arrival. The school values its SATS scores highly (probably all schools do) and it may be a high pressure time for the year 2 teachers with no financial benefit to the school of taking an extra person into the class.

It was the head of the other site who mentioned they had spaces (at her site). She may have taken a view that as they were down by five children she'd want to take an extra one in when the opportunity arose unlike the other school site who will fill their places more easily. Also, my daughter was well behaved on the tour and the head asked her some questions about what subjects she was interested in so who knows if that had any influence on the availability of a space!

Regarding whether the places have already been offered and they will have a new influx after Easter I will probably find that out after Easter as I can clarify with parents of the child who is supposedly in the class of 27 and maybe get to the bottom of that! We are very close to the school so would be high up on the list for a place - only likely to be exceeded by those in the higher categories of sibling, ECHP, in care/adopted, teacher child etc. Its possible the school likes to keep a few vacancies for teacher children to boost their recruitment.

Interesting though that schools don't have to offer out places - this must make things complicated for those who want to move house. Potentially having to take whichever school is prepared to offer a place which may be far away?

We were offered a place further away by the council before we advised them that we had already accepted a place from the nearer academy school. Interestingly I had a call from the admissions lady at the alternative school we were offered probing for my immediate reaction to the offer. She said her head had queried why we would want the school. I think they were understandably sceptical that we would stay long and a bit surprised we had been allocated to them!

OP, if they have places they are supposed to offer them. But whether they have spaces or not is their decision if the council is not the admissions authority - this can be the case for voluntary aided schools, as well as academies. The only way you will resolve it is by doing an in-year appeal. Suggest you just do that rather than waiting and wondering.

It's worth adding that an appeal is a two stage process. At stage 1 the school presents its case for why it thinks it is full and doesn't have space for another child. If their case is accepted by the panel, only then does it move onto stage 2, where the parent says why they think their reasons for wanting a place outweigh the school's reasons for not wanting another student. But if the panel doesn't accept the school's case in stage 1, you'll be granted the place, without even needing to make a strong case. The panel aren't even allowed to consider your relative position on the waiting list (which may seemunfair, because if there is a space, surely it should go to the person at the top of the waiting list, rather than the person who appealed, but that's how it works).

Thank you for suggestions about in year appeal. How long does an appeal typically take as I am wondering if it would take us to the end of next term or beyond in which case spaces will likely magically appear for a September entry point anyway to time nicely with a new round of funding and the end of KS1 Sats?

Also, I wondered if an appeal might be complicated if the school has two sites and has offered a place in one site but we want the other? They could say they have offered a place in the school so does that remove the grounds for an appeal altogether? Also, I have accepted the offer of the place at the less-preferred site as it is still vastly better than the alternative offered by the council which was a long way away. I would only really know after Easter if the class sizes in the other site are below 30 by which time we will have started at the other school site.

The academy is the admissions authority so, from what various posters have said, it looks like they decide when they are full rather than having to keep their class sizes at 30 which is what they start out as in reception year.

I would be grateful for any thoughts on our chances!

My DD came home after day 2 in her new school and said that the teachers said now her class is girl-heavy (they had three new girls join including her after Easter, albeit are still a few below 30). She reported the teachers saying that if another girl applies they will say they are full but if a boy applies they will say they have spaces. She said the teachers were discussing this. So there you go. They are an academy!