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Education

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Schools

127 replies

Judy1234 · 06/01/2008 11:34

The telegraph has some interesting articles on schools today - one about the BFS schools scheme - to rebuild every school in the UK although that seems to be giving some local councils an excuse to close successful schools.

And another below about clever children in state schools not being stretched because they are in mixed ability primary school groups.

Schools failing to nurture gifted children

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent
Last Updated: 1:25am GMT 06/01/2008

Bright children are being failed by teachers who do not stretch them enough or give them the individual attention they need, Government research has found.

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Gifted pupils are routinely put in the wrong ability groups and are set targets that are too low, a study by the Department for Children, Schools and Families discovered. In many schools, young people who show early promise are left to fall behind.

Schools failing to nurture gifted children
Government has spent almost £400 million in the past decade on gifted and talented programmes

Almost a quarter of the 140,000 children who achieve an above-average level 3 in assessments at the age of seven do not go on to score high marks in tests at 11.

The results are a significant blow to the Government, which has spent almost £400 million in the past decade on gifted and talented programmes in an attempt to convince many middle-class parents that bright children will be nurtured in the state sector.

The report, Able Pupils Who Lose Momentum, found shortcomings in the 37 primaries across England visited by Government advisers.

One of the key problems uncovered by researchers was the failure to put children into ability sets or groups. Even when children were put in classes with children of similar abilities, clever children were still grouped with other "lower ability" pupils when carrying out work.

"Children often worked exclusively in mixed-ability groups and rarely worked with children who were making similar rates of progress," the report said.
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"They often perceived themselves as additional support to less able pupils. But the majority of children said they would have liked more opportunities to work in ability groups or independently."

Less than half of the schools had good systems to track and monitor children's progress.

Reviews of how children were doing were infrequent and it was not uncommon for targets to remain unchanged for more than a term.

In about one in four primaries that were visited, the targets set for bright children were often pitched at a low or rudimentary level.

Teachers over-emphasised simple functional skills, such as "join up your handwriting", "finish more worksheets" and "be neater".

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School advisers also found that some of the pupils, particularly girls, were "invisible children" because they were quiet and undemanding. As a result they received less of the teachers' time.

"Many children said they rarely received help from the teacher when working on their maths," the report said.

"Some expressed the view that their teachers always work with the pupils in the 'lower groups', while others said a few able children monopolised the teacher's time. Some children talked about wanting to do the more challenging work that these pupils were given."

The findings come as ministers announced a new measure in school league tables to show how bright children progress, in yet another attempt to force schools to focus on talented pupils.

Under guidelines, schools are expected to provide extra help to bright pupils, giving them more challenging work, after-hours classes and registering the most able with the National Academy for Gifted and Talented Youth, established by the Government in 2002.

In reality, 35 per cent of primaries still do not identify their brightest pupils and one in 10 secondaries do not give them extra support.

Stephen Tommis, the director of the National Association for Gifted Children charity, said many pupils were still being failed by schools. "There is greater awareness than there has ever been, and gifted and talented children are on the political agenda," he said. "But it seems to be taking an awful long time for the idea to permeate through to the schools.

"Too many schools give no extra support. In some of the others, it is a matter of ticking boxes rather than sustained provision. Teachers need to realise that it is not elitist and it is not going to go away.

"During a career, teachers will meet hundreds of gifted children. They can provide them with opportunities or they can deny them.""

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Judy1234 · 07/01/2008 22:31

Ah, well first of all the best religious education is in the private sector.

Secondly most private schools are selling an education in a very broad sense, not just exam results and have the time and money and space to get the children to talk about important ethical issues in a way there just isn't always time for in the state system.

Anmd if you think capitalism is great as i do then obviously you're going to have it best shown working well in the private system rather than in Stallag Comp no. 235 populated by leftist defeatist teachers.

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TellusMater · 07/01/2008 22:33

LOL. Well, there's no arguing against that data is there!

suedonim · 07/01/2008 22:38

So only religious folk have ethics????

worzella · 07/01/2008 22:38

What evidence do you have Xenia? Have you ever been into a state school. State schools can produce brilliant students too...grammar schools may well have given a get out of jail free card in the 60s. Now their intake is more skewed by the ability of parents to pay to coach to the test. My issue is what effect grammar schools have on the other schools in an area.

There are many problems with the education system in this country but more grammar schools or private schools are not the answer.

Heated · 07/01/2008 23:08

Both my brother and I were educated in private prep and at 11 my brother attended a prestigious independent school in London & I didn't. He has a confidence to him that I do not (some might say arrogance) & he travelled to far flung places whilst at school. I didn't get into the top 4 independent girls' schools and my parents weren't willing or able to pay for inferior education, so I went to a good comp.

Yet it is me who has the better GCSEs, A levels, applied to Oxbridge, has the better degree, and certainly is more street savvy and has probably the larger social conscience. Smart uniform, choirs & cloisters don't necessarily equate to the best teaching.

Now as a teacher myself in a state school which is rated outstanding (some internal debate there on that one) I am a firm believer it is parents who make the biggest difference to life chances - my parents certainly molded us.

Yes, ideally we'd like our children in the nice environs a private school can offer and certainly the smaller class sizes, but I also know where the better teachers are to be found.

Heated · 07/01/2008 23:16

Just re-read my message and recalled my father does some work for a state school in London which is architecturally award-winning & on the architect tour, and my old state school has science and tech labs that are simply stunning & classrooms with individually controlled air-con, so sometimes the best environs can be state too (shuddering at some pretty dire Oxford accommodation where the sinks were used as loos at night because they were across a cold quad)

suedonim · 07/01/2008 23:31

And I'd like to say that my ds has just become Dr Donim, having achieved nothing but top marks all the way through university. I guess that's in spite of his 100% state education. Really, you do talk a load of bunkum, Xenia.

RosaLuxOnTheBrightSideOfLife · 08/01/2008 01:02

Xenia - always such good entertainment value. I think her view of state schools were actually formed by the Beano.

fembear · 08/01/2008 08:32

If State education is so wonderful, why do so many State teachers send their children to Private schools?

Judy1234 · 08/01/2008 09:02

Indeed and doesn't Heated prove it all - she ended up just as a state school teachers whereas her brother who went to the London very good private school has the assurance and confidence. If he earns less than Heated does now then I might think again. If he earns more then I will still think the private schools win out.

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Bridie3 · 08/01/2008 09:11

But Xenia--life success is not all about how much money you earn.

I am a success professionally (at least, this year!) but the nature of my work means I will probably never earn a really high salary. But I am extremely fulfilled and happy with my work, which is fascinating and challenging.

spokette · 08/01/2008 09:36

Threads like this are just so nauseating and usually started by people who want to to demonstrate their superiority.

I am state educated (comp) and have a PhD chemistry. DH is state educated (comp), has a PhD in chemistry and recently received an MBA with distinction. SIL is state educated (comp) has a PhD in Biochemistry and currently doing a post-doc at Harvard, the top university in the world. None of us received any extra tutoring either - our parents just sent us to school and we worked hard.

DH cousins went to private school and left without passing their GCSEs. My boss educated his daughters privately and the oldest managed a D in English GCSE and failed maths. He was not happy.

Just because you pay, does not mean you are going to get a better education. Just because you go to state school, it does not mean that you won't get a decent education.

The most important factor is the individual, how motivated they are and the support they get at home.

If you want to be a nurse and achieve that dream through your hard work and commitment, you are just as much a success as someone who works as a city lawyer, even though they probably get paid more than you. Success is not only measured in monetary terms and anybody who think it is, is a real muppet.

hurricane · 08/01/2008 11:34

I particularly enjoyed the bit about the men and women from very poor backgrounds filling the house of commons (especially the women bit!). It hardly seems pointing out how far from reality this is but this article points out hat 1/3 of MPs have actually been to independent schools
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4514156.stm

No doubt Xenia will use this to fuel her 'private schools turn out better and brighter children because they are better schools' argument. The rest of us know that's rubbish.

Xenia you are speaking from a particular agenda which is about snobbery and elitism. We are all very familiar with it but it flies in the face of reality and real research and values that most people now respect like equality and opportunity for all.

Judy1234 · 08/01/2008 12:57

It's just a bit of fun...BUT I think private schools improve your life chances. They make you better at speaking, more confident, more likely to think yes I can achieve whatever I choose, they give you assurance and confidence and I do think in general children from private schools end up in better paid jobs too and that makes life so much more easy.

Just take any analysis of senior people in the UK in just about anything except perhaps running local authorities and you'll still see more than the 6% who went to private school, more like the 33% of MPS from private schools than what the percentages should show even allowing for some but by no means all private schools having selective entry.

On the other hand I've just been talking to someone who is taking their child out of school ( there are a few - my son was just saying these are early recession signs and he's right) and saying how it may not matter as much as they think. It must be hard to have something you then lose rather than never have it.

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coffeepot · 08/01/2008 13:18

Xenia wrote: "I think private schools improve your life chances. They make you better at speaking, more confident, more likely to think yes I can achieve whatever I choose, they give you assurance and confidence"

It would be interesting to know what it is about private schools that make better speakers / more confident / more self assured people - and what we could do to give this confidence to our state educated children too.

Bridie3 · 08/01/2008 14:03

I dodespite posting against her points at timesagree with Xenia to a degree. I don't know why it's the case, though: perhaps because private schools have more money and, as importantly, more curriculum time to find things that children are good at.

You might be hopeless at soccer and maths, but perhaps a private school has the resources to provide you with lots of activities until you discover that you're actually very good at fencing and chess. With commensurate benefits to your self-esteem in the classroom so you learn more.

Dunno. Just hypothesising.

spokette · 08/01/2008 14:42

"I think private schools improve your life chances. They make you better at speaking, more confident, more likely to think yes I can achieve whatever I choose, they give you assurance and confidence"

I know many people from state schools with those qualities. I have also come across people from private educated backgrounds who would jump at their own shadow. The fact that Xenia and her ilk have to keep repeating this mantra suggests that they have to keep convincing themselves of their good fortune. Trouble is, they don't realise that they come across as crass, supercilious bores.

As for private schools having plenty of resources to provide lots of activities, I have been looking at state primary schools for my DTS and they all provided a vast range of activities. The one I have put as my first choice has 14 afterschool or lunchtime clubs including fencing, German, science, athletics, tag rugby, football, cricket, art, music group, choir, gardening etc. All the schools had interacive white boards, computer suites with enough computers/laptops which means that each child has access to their own computer without having to share. The 11yos that showed me around were articulate, full of aplomb, self-assured without cockiness and they knew what they wanted out of life.

They also did not sneer at those lest fortunate than themselves and were very proud of their link to a rural school in Kenya.

aintnomountainhighenough · 08/01/2008 14:55

Whilst your school sounds great spokette I have a feeling that state schools like this are in the minority whereas private schools tend to all offer good facilities.

For us actually the main problem with the state sector is that they have to follow the curriculum and the endless testing. From what I am reading in the papers the gap is widening rather than narrowing between them and this is a shame. There was an interesting article in the Torygraph at the weekend regarding GCSE results and how once you took away English and Maths many state schools had very poor results ie they are getting pupils to take 'easier' subjects to boost themselves in the league tables. This to me is frankly very worrying and dishonest. Many private schools are moving away from GCSEs and 'A' levels and offering more challenging examinations. I think the ball has started rolling and it is going to continue - making an even bigger gap between the 2 sectors and making it even more of a 2 tier society. The universities are also becoming much stricter on subjects they will accept at 'A' level.

The whole thing seems a mess to me and I find it very depressing. Sounds a bit dramatic I know but there we are.

Bridie3 · 08/01/2008 15:03

Erm, I wasn't sneering at state schools, Spokette (if that was aimed at me!). I have a daughter in a state primary. I am a parent volunteer and do school marketing and my husband is a governor...

Our school DOES not have all those clubs, though, because of its size. It also can not provide each child with one hour's PE or sport a day, unlike my son's school, which is private and can.

ACtually, and as an aside, I think white boards are a bit of a white elephant for lots of teachers. It's been my experience helping out with science that using white boards actually deprives children of the chance to get their hands dirty and see how things work.

spokette · 08/01/2008 15:16

Yeah, also, the other thing that you forget to mention is that private schools tend to select their intake and discard the ones that don't come up to scratch. They also boot out those who misbehave and in most cases, it is the state sector that has to take them on. How they can claim charitable status when their treatment of those who don't fit in is less than charitable is beyond me. They also are very good at coaching for exams to which many universities can testify. If the private schools were less selective and weren't allowed to discard the undesirables, I bet their results would be a lot different.

It is not a level playing field and comparing the two sectors by ignoring these important factors is nonsense. As for your comment that private schools offer good facilities - what, all of them? I think you would be surprised at the facilities of some of these places.

Things are not as black and white as you like to think - even me with my woeful state education can understand that simple fact.

spokette · 08/01/2008 15:18

I was not sneering at you Birdie, it was to she who is the fountain of all things private

Bridie3 · 08/01/2008 15:19

Oh, OK!

Tis easy on these boards to find you're having a violent agreement with someone!

Swedes2Turnips1 · 08/01/2008 15:27

MY DS2 (12) was in a mixed year group for the last 2 years at his state primary. I don't think he did any work at all for the last year he was at school. Because he is well-behaved and quiet in nature, nobody noticed. For example, I don't think they noticed he was really brilliant at maths because there was nothing to test him to the level of which he was truly capable, they just wanted him to get L5s in his SATs and nothing else mattered. He has now joined a selective independent and came top in the whole year at maths and his new school have really done an awful lot to keep him interested and occupied.

hurricane · 08/01/2008 16:40

Once again I am confronted by the remarkable insight from Xenia that the children who come out of private schools are more likely to have an easier life and a confidence than those who come out of state schools.

Well, what an incredible surprise considering the children who have been to private schools have parents who are highly likely themselves to be educated, well off and support their children's education. How incredibly surprising considering they are selected and then cosseted in small classes where their peers have also been selected and are also supported by parents who are also relatively well off. How amazing considering they are told know and are regularly told that they are among an elite. How surprising considering that it is assumed that they are better than otehr kids by so many (like Xenia).

And do confidence and an easier life make a better or even a brighter child and adult? And how much of this confidence or intelligence is a result of the private school itself rather than the effort and expense it is has taken to get them and maintain them there (primarily by their parents support and money).

But then what do I know about this debate? I am 'just' a teacher in the state sector like Martianbishop and others on this thread. Whereas Xenia (perhaps as a result of her so wonderful private education and with no direct expereince of state education herself as parent, teacher or student) feels able to come up with antiquated, snobbish, unfounded and elitist claptrap.

hurricane · 08/01/2008 16:44

And I have just found out that another of my students (a highly intelligent but modest and though not lacking in confidence not boastful or extrovert either) who is predicted As at A Level and has been through the state system has got into Oxford. Oh how he has been failed by us inferior state school teachers (what with the rigorous advice we have given him on improving his essays, his mock intereviews, his participation in G & T programmes)!

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