Advice needed as to how to approach ds's teacher. (LONG!)

[Lonelymum]

I know this has been done to death, but I would really like some advice. And none of the following is showing off - I genuinely want the opinion of anyone who has experience of this either as a teacher or as a parent.
My son, in Yr 2, is academically gifted, especially in Maths. Last year, as a Yr 1 child, he was lucky enough to be taught in a mixed Yr 1/2 class and took all his Maths lessons with the Yr 2. He was top of his class, despite being with chiildren a year older than himself. This year, he is in a single year class, and is doing the same Yr 2 Maths curriculum as he did last year. The headteacher originally said he would receive an individual programme of work, but his class teacher said she couldn't do that, but would give him extension work. Both dh and I got the impression she wasn't bothered about our son because he already knew enough to do well in the SATs. She is not an approachable woman by any means.
Lately ds has become unhappy, complains of tummy aches which lead to nothing, and last night admitted he didn't want to go to school (even said there was no point going to school) because he doesn't learn anything. I said that can't be true but he insists he learns nothing in Maths, which I believe may well be true. I decided to take the bull by the horns and try to deal with this again, as it is not fair that my son does not develop his Maths talent this year. I don't believe the answer is giving him work at home. That is allowing the school to cop out IMO. I still have his Maths work from last year, and so I went into school this morning and made an appt to see this year's Maths work this afternoon (though not his teacher as she became very defensive and said she would not be able to see me today, but would see me another day). I don't want to wind he up and turn her against my son, but I have to try to resolve this. I am a former teacher myself and not a very tactful person, so can anyone advise me how I should tackle my meeting with his teacher, if I find that he is indeed doing the same work as last year?

frogs- think you misread my message- what I meant was that teachers are very aware that they are not meeting the needs of high achievers!

I think that in general teachers recognise G & T in the same way that they recognise SEN. I also think that many teachers do have a great deal of entusiasm for teaching the very able. Oh dear, this is going to sound like a total cop-out now.

The problem is that if you have 28 kids in the class, those at either end of the spectrum can't get what they need. At least, not to the degree that they need it, as often as they need it. I teach some very able children. I only have them for 2 hours 20 minutes a week. They will be with other bright but not as bright kids. I have to cover the NC (wish I didn't but that is another thread) and at best I can give them some more demanding work sheets or a few minutes chat in the lesson. I simply cant and trust me I would like to.

It amuses me that the brightest in the year is my only statmented child....high functioning ASD. I can keep pace with him in y10, and next year will be OK. Heaven help me if he takes biology in the sixthform! He is a delight. His ability is quite amazing.

yes yes hmb- that's what I was trying to say. Get away from the norm in either direction and there just aren't the resources. Mainly because a completely individual programme is needed and you can't do that with 29 other children in the class. That's why the school can't meets ds1's needs (compared to the special school today- where he would still need and would still get an individual programme- but with only 5 others in the class-and several teaching assistants as well as the teacher).

Just had a thought- I was talking to a friend recently who is a GAT co-ordinator for literacy. They pull children out of schools to provide extra work etc and to stretch them. However this is GAT in context- currently their efforts are focused on the most deprived areas of our city as the LEA feel that's where their resources need to go (probably true- as some areas of this city have been identified as some of the most deprived in Europe).

Anyway point of this ramble being maybe you need to get onto the LEA about them providing support for more able children across their entire area. There may be funding that can be found for that. Although warning- any dealings with the LEA will take a long time.

Having fairly quickly read through this thread there doesn't seem to be an obvious solution to this problem. My DD was in a mixed YR1/2 class in her last school (when she was in YR1) and worked at the top end of YR2. When we moved I took all her work to her new school and asked if she could either have extension work or go in to YR3. I was told neither was possible. As we found we were moving late in the day there were no other state schools which could take her and private schools were not an option for many reasons. Anyway she repeated the entire year and learnt nothing in school. I had frequent meetings and various things were promised but nothing happened. Basically it seemed that she had to suffer whilst others caught up. Very difficult as they hadn't begun cursive writing whilst DD had been taught it from reception. She had/has beatiful handwriting but they still made her copy letters out endlessly! She was so bored and unmotivated but things improved very slightly in YR3. She is now in Yr4 and I have just met with her class teacher (new to school) who informed me that she is way ahead of everyone in the class and will easily achieve the Level 4 at the end of this year. Will they then give up on her as she will have achieved the Government's standard? The teacher admitted that all the homework was set at a level far below her capabilities - we extend it ourselves to ensure that she actually learns from it.

I think there is little point in challenging the school anymore and now view it as a socialising activity. Although we don't teach her formally we endlessly discuss things with her and encourage her to read as much as possible. It is not fair though and exhausting with two other children to look after. DD2 is also beginning to show the same aptitude...

Our LEA runs a Saturday school for very gifted mathematicians on Saturday mornings. BUT it is only Year5 and year 6.

Having slept on it, I have nothing new and inspirational to add, just wanted to make the following points to what you have said:
Frogs - yes I didn't like the way she hung on to my son's work and didn't let me see it, but their work for the term always comes home at the end of each term, so, rather than get up her nose by asking again, I have decided to wait until Xmas and then look and see if he is doing the same work as before. If his work doesn't come home then as usual, a scene will be made!
HMB - as a teacher myself, I fully understand what you are saying about lack of time to focus on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but somehow I feel differently about it when it is my son who is suffering! Selfish I know. However, ds is in a class of just 20 children, so I think the teacher has less of an excuse than some.
Jimjams and Janeybops - our LEA does provide some additional support for G&T children. The brightest in Yr 6 have an extra lesson a week at the local secondary school, but my ds is a long way from that. He has been invited to apply for a one-off Saturday morning class next Feb, where he will work with other G&T children, but only if we get a place (30 in total).And that will be just one day.
Yoyo - your story is exactly like ours, but you are further down the line with it. I feel so sad reading stuff like "she had to suffer while others caught up". That, in a nutshell, is what I find so disheartening about the situation we are in. I love the fact that my son has gifts (all children do) and I so want him to continue with them and continue to shine, not sit back in the mire with everyone else. It occurs to me that the head of our school, being fond of football and cricket himself, has done much to promote those activities in the school and the surrounding schools and is always going on about football matches won, competitions held, etc. If he had a talented footballer in his school, he would be encouraging him every way he could, and celebrating his (or, I suppose I should say, her) achievements in every assembly, so why doesn't he feel the same way about my son and any other G&T children in the school?

At least your class size is good. My DD will have 30 in her class come January. What chance will my DD have then with the complete range of abilities from dyslexia, ADHD, a non-English speaker with minimum classroom assistance? I have some sympathy for her teacher (a very young NQT) as it's bound to be difficult.
The other problem that we are beginning to encounter is that other children are aware of my DD's abilities and have started name-calling. It is very difficult for her because her vocabulary is extensive and I think children feel rather disconcerted by it. Hopefully with our support this will not be an issue for her.
Sorry I can't be more encouraging re:your son - I'm afraid it is one more thing outside the norm that schools find so difficult to deal with.
Good luck with your future battles!

Clearly we have collectively failed the education system by not producing a child whose scores fall neatly between the 25th and 75th centiles. This is a grave dereliction of our duty as parents, and we have only ourselves to blame for any resulting problems.

Yes, I'm in a cynical mood. Off to see deputy head today to ask why
a) the children are doing the Vikings again, and are being given the SAME worksheets they had when they did the Vikings in Y4. Apparently when the children queried this, the teacher said, "Well it says in my book that's what you're meant to do, so you'll just have to do them all again."
b) The latest homework spelling list for this Y5 high ability group included such gems as 'house-houses, goose-geese, leaf-leaves', all words that this group could spell in Y1;
c) my dd shows a worrying familiarity with the ring tone of her teacher's mobile phone.

Also, I urgently need to ask the deputy what she thinks I should say to my child when she expresses the view that school is a pointless waste of time.

I do know what it is like. We have sent dd to a private school since they are more able to cope with her educational demands. She isn't so bright across the board, but she is 7 with a reading age of 12. She is 'bright' in most subjects but very able in some. I knew that the local primary would fail to stimulate her. Ds is at the same school and is benefiting from the extra attentention that he needs at the other end of the attainment scale.

It sucks, but in the end we decided to pay for what everyone should get from the state sector.

I do know what it is like. We have sent dd to a private school since they are more able to cope with her educational demands. She isn't so bright across the board, but she is 7 with a reading age of 12. She is 'bright' in most subjects but very able in some. I knew that the local primary would fail to stimulate her. Ds is at the same school and is benefiting from the extra attentention that he needs at the other end of the attainment scale.

It sucks, but in the end we decided to pay for what everyone should get from the state sector.

I do know what it is like. We have sent dd to a private school since they are more able to cope with her educational demands. She isn't so bright across the board, but she is 7 with a reading age of 12. She is 'bright' in most subjects but very able in some. I knew that the local primary would fail to stimulate her. Ds is at the same school and is benefiting from the extra attentention that he needs at the other end of the attainment scale.

It sucks, but in the end we decided to pay for what everyone should get from the state sector.

We have had this issue, and after about year 2 I gave up trying to do anything about it. Sitting in with the next year doesn't really help as the difference in ability between years isn't all that much for a mathematically able child, and I'm fairly nervous of too much 'special treatment' in any case. Most teachers ideas of extension work is extra homework which isn't fair and in most cases still not at an appropriate level. We haven't gone down the extra work at home route since I think home is for other non-academic pursuits. He has however read and enjoyed a number of the 'murderous maths' books which you might want to look at as it doesn't have the same 'feel' as worksheets. Since few schools can provide a sensible path for advanced mathematicians (some interesting views on this at the mathematical association ) I've arranged for ds (now yr 6) to miss as many maths lessons as possible for his music lessons and encouraged him to bare with the rest with good grace.

Frogs, just a little devil's advocacy here: sometimes the teacher is repeating stuff because it consolidates - most learning at primary level is by repetition. Also, its not useful to ask the teacher what to say to your child's question - all children ask this at some time and I believe it is our parental job to keep them enthusiastic as much as the teacher's. Maybe some of your cynicism is rubbing off?

As a teacher of primary specalising in maths, I've found this thread interesting. Think you've gone down the right lines of investigating lonelymum and the teacher doesn't sound very helpful. Has she given you anymore information on the extension work she is giving your son?

I have worked with more able mathematicians and one/two gifted children for maths (mainly for KS2). Generally, I felt there were two ways in which I could challenge/extend their knowledge/skills. The first was to introduce more concepts, so for example new work on algebra. The second is to use the concepts they have already but to get them to use them through investigational and problem solving work. Generally I've preferred the second as personally I feel that's more of what a mathematician is about, and it's usually what engages gifted children.

Aside from this, there is an excellent maths magazine available, written in a 'comic' form, though it's targetted at year 4-6 children. It's called Circa and they have their own website where you can order it. Whilst I understand and agree with your concern about not doing extra work outside of school, your son may enjoy this, though depending on his reading ability, may need some help. Might be more useful in the future.

Frogs - did you get a satisfactory response from the deputy head and in particular to the question of what to say when your dd says school is a pointless waste of time? I would love to know what to say to that one as ds has started to say it too (and only aged 6 - how sad). In fairness, Cam, I did tell ds he was talking nonsense as he learnt lots in other subjects, but I am afraid in Maths, I do not honestly believe he is learning anything right now.
Last night, ds decided to do some of the pages in his Maths workbook we bought him (supposedly Yr 3 level). He did 2 pages in double quick time, only asked me one brief question about one tiny part of it, and this only to check he understood it correctly (he did) and got every single thing right. Now, by my professional reckoning, that would suggest that even Yr 3 work was too easy for him. I don't want to push him to do work at home (the books are strictly for when he or his siblings want to do some extra work) but after yesterday, I must admit I want him to finish them quickly so I can take them into school and say this is what he is capable of alone.
Barbaloot - are "murderous maths" books by the same people who do the "Horrible history" series (another big favourite with both my sons.
Pootlepod - thanks for your comments. No the teacher didn't really explain what she was doing to extend ds. She gave one specific example of what she had done that day (doing multiplication, she made my son use larger numbers) but I didn't see his work which is what I really wanted to do, so I don't know how often he gets harder things to do. Anyway, to be harder than what he did last year, they would have to be extension activities for Yr 3 as he already did Yr 2 plus extension activities last year when he was in Yr 1. I would look up the website of the magazine you recommend. He has a high reading age too, so the language shouldn't be a problem.

Any idea what the website is called? www.circa.co.uk got me to an IT recruitment agency!

just dug my last magazine out

www.circamaths.co.uk

They can also recommend some 'maths interest' books.

Lonelymum, Yes Murdereous maths are very akin to the horrible histories, same format and everything. Very readable.

Cam, the whole problem is while many kids need lots of repetition to consolidate, very able ones don't. If a child fully understands fractions from reading a comic book on them what point is there in doing pages of halves and quarters one year, then eigths thirds and fifths the next, then ...

pootlepod,
Of your two approaches introducing new concepts only works if it's part of a carefully prepared plan moving on up the school. Otherwise you are just setting yourself up for more boredom later. The problem solving is OK as far as it goes, except that these children seem to 'pick-up' on concepts that you haven't taught them anyway and really want problems involving stuff they're not supposed to know.

Yes I know barbaloot but I didn't want to say it because bright kids still have to fit into the classroom with all the others. I don't think it particularly harms bright children to repeat stuff, I guess most if not all bright children are bored at school (I found it all too "easy" until university when I could get my teeth into a subject that really interested me) - but its up to the parents to extend their children's interests out of school IMO. Plus, the teacher still has to satisfy herself that the child does know the stuff and its useful to learn how to do stuff in a certain way for future exams etc. Knowing stuff is not always the same as knowing how to present it.