Do private schools give bursaries/scholarships to parents with decent salaries?

[Alyosha]

I feel certain that the answer to this will be "no" but wanted to check.

We have two DS, 3 and 3 months. We both have good jobs, joint salary is over £100k, very comfortable and we have no complaints about our standard of living. We live in London, where private school fees seem to have gone absolutely nuts. I went to SHHS which was £9k pa by time I left in 2007; so very expensive but would be just about affordable for me & DH for 2 DCs. Occasionally they send me a begging letter asking me to donate for their fund to build a world class music centre...can't say I'm too motivated to donate now their fees are pushing £20k pa.

I can't see any way that we could afford school fees for both boys in 2- 3 year's time even with our good incomes. But looking at the support available it's only if you're earning under £80k. But there's no way I would have thought a family jointly earning £80k could afford £20k in school fees for 2 children (£40k net a year!) with mortgage, council tax, utilities, groceries etc.

So our only option would be a scholarship, but most scholarships seem to be 20% max off fees, which doesn't make them affordable, especially not long term. Is there anywhere that has substantial fee remission for a scholarship in commuting distance of North London, either primary or secondary?

This is of course assuming the DCs would even get scholarships, which I realise is a tall order!

And no we couldn't have afforded it without scholarship but they didn't know that

[quote Alyosha]@Chgl92 Yes would consider the oratory, think my main reservation is that like grammar schools, I think it should be even better than it is given very advantaged intake that is very similar to what a private school would have looked like 10/20 years ago. Honestly my husband thinks the priest would make him do flower arranging, clean the whole church to get the recommendation/letter thing and is content to just go every Sunday for mass. Not being au fait with Catholic school admissions myself I'm not sure if that's enough!

@mewkins But that's also really odd, is it only private schools that can "suit" a child? Most people scope out state schools with good results and that's enough for them (well it certainly is for me!).

@naaaahhh that's correct, they don't exist: digest.bps.org.uk/2021/02/04/the-learning-styles-myth-is-still-prevalent-among-educators-and-it-shows-no-sign-of-going-away/

I know what I want vis a vis modern education: direct instruction. I'm a Siegried Engelmann fan (indeed, I've started DS on his "teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons").

@Hoppinggreen we could afford that - I think the thing with London is you have amazing state schools, so you don't need the private option so much. Outside London private is more affordable but also more high stakes as there are fewer excellent state schools. I'm hoping London state schools remain as good as they are now if not better in the next 8 years!

@impasto I wouldn't choose just for university admissions, it's more the whole picture of academic support, access to orchestras/sport, not feeling like the odd one out (I went from being the wealthiest kid in primary & therefore target of bullying to average in SHHS which was very pleasant). I think in the round, their life chances will be positively affected by private school.[/quote]
No. And that's why you go to open evenings. Where I live there were 4 very good state schools to visit. We then decided on the order of preference.

Your decisions may be entirely based on results but all of my friends have made choices with their child's input, based on a variety of factors. Yes, even those poor people using state education are allowed to make choices!

When your child actually attends school you may realise what I am saying. You literally have no idea about how your child will perform at school right now. Because he is 3.

Given the targets set for social inclusion at top universities I am afraid that attending a private school is adding a lead weight to the ankle of a student's aspiration. Far better to attend a state school then sixth form and pay for private tutors in those subjects that they struggle in. Attending an 'average' comprehensive and a tertiary college with other students doing vocational subjects which makes the college look like it is underperforming in A levels makes the AAA* prediction leap out at Admissions Tutors in a way that a similar prediction from 'St Toffs' would not. In addition the student is likely to receive some form of bursary because the institutions they attended had low take up of HE by their alumni.

😂 no of course not
Scholarships/ burseries are for talented or gifted children who's parents do not earn 100k per annum

@Alyosha That is one article, not naming any research of any impact. I think I sticking with the mast majority of the teaching profession on this one, and also on my own experience of having three DC much older than yours. You have a very long journey ahead and I fear you are off to a bad start. Good luck.

@mewkins I know he's 3, he tells me every day. I went round schools with my parents and was desperate to go to Channing. fortunately I didn't get it because it would have been a horrible fit!

@Megan1992xx Not sure that's true. Still an advantage for private school kids even if smaller than it was before. I don't think any child of mine is going to be in line for a University bursary with wealthy parents who also attended University!

@EuromamaAussiekids - you're way behind! We've already worked out that SPS will give me 75% off:D

@naaaahhh all right let's make this easier. What evidence will you accept?

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10212-020-00485-2

@Alyosha I am working and keep getting emails saying you have mentioned me. Sum the research up for me please, I am interested but busy.
You are clearly not working today as you have so much time on this thread - maybe up your days so you can pay for private school if it is causing you so much distress?

@Megan1992xx

Given the targets set for social inclusion at top universities I am afraid that attending a private school is adding a lead weight to the ankle of a student's aspiration. Far better to attend a state school then sixth form and pay for private tutors in those subjects that they struggle in. Attending an 'average' comprehensive and a tertiary college with other students doing vocational subjects which makes the college look like it is underperforming in A levels makes the AAA* prediction leap out at Admissions Tutors in a way that a similar prediction from 'St Toffs' would not. In addition the student is likely to receive some form of bursary because the institutions they attended had low take up of HE by their alumni.

All true if the only reason you send a child to Private school purely for good exam results. That’s not the only reason to do it though

My understanding is that bursaries are means tested, scholarships are not - just awarded in the basis of performance in entrance exams - assume some candidates might get a mix of both. Generally in SW London at least, scholarships are pretty nominal. Surbiton high offers up to around 40-50% but I think that’s because it is competition with other local academic girls school, takes girls from its primary and therefore wants to secure some high performers in the 11+ intake. I’m sure there are other good (but possibly not the most competitive) independent schools that offer similar.

@naaaahhh I dropped a link in my last comment.
I'm on maternity leave.

Don't reply if you don't want me to @ you I suppose?

@naaaahhh you can also change your settings so you don't get notifications, hope that helps.

@Alyosha Your baby must sleep an awful lot then!
Yup saw the link but don't have enough hours in the day, please sum it up for me in three sentences. I am genuinely interested.

I am running workshops at a cracking secondary school tomorrow, I shall ask them about their attitude to learning styles, be interested to hear what they say.

[quote Alyosha]@CurlyhairedAssassin Not a goady troll. Lol. You can check my post history!

And no, we can't adjust our net income to afford £40k net on school fees (will be higher of course when the kids actually start) given our relatively high mortgage, groceries & other expenses. DH is 33 and I am 32 we also have ~£300 off our salaries for student loan repayments every month which may not have factored in to your calculations. And I've had 2 maternity leaves which has also eaten into our savings.[/quote]
Live a much more modest lifestyle like so many others and then you will be able to afford school fees. It's not rocket science.

@naaaahhh both of my kids are Gina babies, so at this age (3.5 months) long 2 hour lunchtime nap, 45 min morning nap, bed at 7. Now I've said that he'll be screaming all night!

Here you go "The Centre for Educational Research and Innovation (CERI), a strand of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), has recognised and categorised LS as a neuromyth (OECD 2002). The Education Endowment Foundation, which compiles research and evidence-based practice for teachers to use, characterises the evidence for LS as ‘very limited’ (Education Endowment Foundation 2019, p1)."

@HarrisMcCoo presumably you mean downsize the house?

'@Alyosha @Megan1992xx Not sure that's true. Still an advantage for private school kids even if smaller than it was before. I don't think any child of mine is going to be in line for a University bursary with wealthy parents who also attended University!'

If you check the Bursary pages of universities you will find that Bursaries are offered by most on the basis of the school/college they attended the terminology is 'Widening Participation'. This Bursary is awarded in most cases on the basis of the UCAS application details of schools/colleges attended. It is designed to reward students who have attended an average or underperforming school and yet have demonstrated the resilience and determination to achieve the As and A*s without the 'private' school 'shine'.

They do not even want to know the family income! Please do some research about the benefits of private schools! University selection processes are only likely to become even more discriminatory against non-state candidates in the future!

Well now you know how most people feel - the inability to afford private education. We have a joint income of around £100,00 but I have no desire to send my children to a private school. If it's very important to you you'll have to tighten your belts.

@Megan1992xx that is very interesting, thanks! Big incentive to send them to the local state school there.

@SallyWD Can't say that's a particularly useful answer, tightening belts will not mean we can suddenly afford £40k from our net salary with an increase of 5% every year. But don't worry! I've been fortunate to get a lot of excellent useful advice already.

@Alyosha
Interesting. Yet if you have a look at EEF's twitter account, at their pinned tweet about updated guidance on improving literacy (which they have shared far and wide with all sorts of education set ups) they talk very clearly about the need to use diagnostics to identify what individual pupils need. Column 5 and 6 are the most interesting. In column 6 it states;
"There is a strong and consistent body of evidence demonstrating the benefit of structured interventions for pupils who are struggling with their literacy. The first step should be to accurately diagnose capabilities and difficulties in order to match pupils to appropriate evidence informed interventions that target specific ares of difficulty."
That seems to me to be advocating a very personal style of teaching depending on each and every child's needs being 'matched'.
twitter.com/EducEndowFoundn/status/1464143153997492224

This Bursary is awarded in most cases on the basis of the UCAS application details of schools/colleges attended. It is designed to reward students who have attended an average or underperforming school …

Universities also offer bursaries based on parental income - regardless of the name of your school! It is perfectly possible to have attended a ‘big name’ Public School (possibly on a bursary), and then to receive a bursary from your university.

@naaaahhh That's not learning styles though - that's saying diagnose the problem accurately. Is it decoding, is it vocabulary, is it blending etc. Learning styles is the old "some people are just more visual learners" hokum.

OP I'm sorry - my response did sound more abrupt than I intended but I did just want to convey that the vast majority of parents can't afford private schools and that's OK. Me and my friends all went to state schools and most of my friends have excellent well-paid careers. I grew up in the same neighbourhood as Paul McCartney and his children all went to state schools too. There are benefits in my opinion to state schools - mixing with people from all backgrounds gives you empathy and understanding for those less fortunate. Of course children who go to private schools can also have that empathy I know, but I just wouldn't want my children only to mix with the richest 7% in the country. You're lucky to live close to some good state schools so if private education doesn't work out for you, your children will be fine.

@Alyosha
I see your point but think it is semantics - it is looking at 'matching' of pupils to 'appropriate' interventions, which to me says learning styles but in slightly different language. Going to ask the SEN department and a few teachers how they interpret that tomorrow and see what they say re LS. Tis interesting.

[quote Alyosha]@Megan1992xx that is very interesting, thanks! Big incentive to send them to the local state school there.

@SallyWD Can't say that's a particularly useful answer, tightening belts will not mean we can suddenly afford £40k from our net salary with an increase of 5% every year. But don't worry! I've been fortunate to get a lot of excellent useful advice already.[/quote]
When it comes to University selection woke society really have it in for the off spring of the middle/upper class who happen to have attended private school. It is worth 'playing the social justice' game and stepping around their prejudice. If your child attends the local 'bog standard' comprehensive providing they are in the top 2 sets they are likely to meet the off spring of other parents 'playing the social justice game'. Pay extra for tutors using the money you have saved to make sure they are in those sets. When it comes to UCAS because of the school they attended they are likely to get easier offers as well as earlier offers as Universities particularly the one's with a reputation for being private school dominated fall over themselves all in pursuit of 'widening participation'. It worked for my school experience.
No matter how hard 'society' attempts to socially engineer the wise middle class always seem to find a way round!

Your impression of university performance is all wrong, OP. State school educated students perform better at top universities than privately educated students, and this has been known for years now - you and I are close in age and I remember this being talked about when I was at university.

A private school may be worth it socially if a child is being bullied in a particular state school and needs a change of atmosphere - or if they would particularly benefit from a specific facility that the school offers (a rare sport, say). But the benefits are not what you think, and if anything your children will do better both at university and in life through meeting a wider range of people.

I would understand "learning styles" as things like visual, auditory, kinetic, etc, that was all the rage a few years ago but have now been debunked.

Changing approaches to teaching according to different pupils within the same class is called differentiation. That's very much not debunked and is very important.