Advice and recent experience of Winchester &/ Eton?

[Baggytrousers2021]

Would really welcome some recent (as impartial as possible) experience of Eton or Winchester College. Our son has been offered places at both (conditional on passing CE or Election) and need to decide pronto as he is year 8. Been yonks since we visited either given Covid times.
Our DS is an enthusiast, hasn’t really worked out how to work (so am sitting here panicking slightly about CE/election) and isn’t at a particularly academically pushy prep school. He loves sport but isn’t an A team player and plays an instrument and enjoys it. He is pretty easy going and sociable.

We really like both housemasters and can see them doing a great job. The size of Winchester is appealing but we do worry that it is so academically focused that the sorts of boys going there will either be super bright (our son is bright enough - curious and would love Div- but is no genius and hasn’t learnt how to apply himself yet) or super geeky. Prep on a Saturday night seems bonkers to me! But, clearly a great education - inspiring place and teachers.

Eton - closer to home so logistics easier but worry that it is a big school and kids may need to be more self-starting to find the right path and get the best out of it. Any views on that point welcome.

Thanks everyone.

are those the only two options??

We were a bit disorganised. They were the 2 recommended by his school.

Congratulations for getting an offer from Eton and Winchester. They are both excellent school.

My DS is very sporty and still enjoying Winchester college. Winchester is getting much better at sport than it used to be. Their cricket team is strong. Their football team has improved , in some recent years their first eleven has beaten some sportier schools such as Marlborough and Eton ( they lost more than they won in the past 5 years but they were able to win in some years). Their junior teams have often lost to sportier schools but they kept practicing and when they‘ve reachEd sixth form they were much better and much more physical than before therefore they were able to compete against those sportier schools. Winchester is one of the best in the country when it comes to sailing , fencing and golf.

According to my DS, being good at sport is now cool at Winchester. Ofcourse Eton is much more competitive when it comes to sport, some of our DS’s friends who were very good at sport at their prep schools got put into C/D teams at Eton and took awhile before they’ve got move up to A/ B teams.

Yes there are some geeks here but not as many as I expected. Those geeky boys do not get bullied at Winchester College since there is no lad culture here. There are many super bright boys but they look normal. Being extrovert here will make your DS standout in a good way. Prep on Saturday annoyed my son at first but he learnt to be organized and find his work/ life balance here. He is very happy at Winchester.

Sport is not compulsory at Winchester, boys are free to choose their own societies and activities instead of sports. Societies are ranging

from debating to Numismatics Society, Computer programming, Rock climbing and young enterprise. Music is big and standard is high, a little too high for my son to join a band or an orchestra, however alternative clubs such as Opera club and Beat Club are available too. The key is to try and to find what each individual enjoy and want to excel here.

Congratulations @Baggytrousers2021.They are both great schools. My DS is coming to the end of his time at Winchester, it's been a fantastic experience for him.

Whilst the emphasis is definitely on academics , boys have so many societies to choose from it's often difficult to fit them all in. After the first few years they tend to find the ones that really interest them. When we joined the school the headmaster said he wanted boys to be happy and successful in that order and he really meant it. The dedication of the housemasters, dons and matrons never ceases to amaze me.

We had the same choice to make and we definitely made the right one for our DS. There are lots of different personalities at Winchester and boys really do respect each other. My ds loves music and sport ( particularly cricket),he has been given some wonderful opportunities in both during his time at the school. Rowing is also strong and your ds will be encouraged to try everything until he finds the best fit for him.

As your DS is outgoing and you think he will enjoy Div, he may well end up on the debating or Model United Nations team. They have both been very successful recently and are championed just much as the sports stars or musicians. Winchester really is a school which plays to a boys strengths. Your DS will be given lots of support and encouragement along the way.

Best of luck with your decision and to your son in the entrance exams.

Thanks v much indeed for taking the time to respond. Massively appreciate it. It is a big decision but there is so much to like about Winchester. By the way - my mistake - def NOT election..I meant Winchester Entrance !

Any views re Eton?

We have good friends with a boy who recently started at Eton and is loving it. He is more sensitive, organised and academic and has fitted in really well. Some of his friends from prep school who were the alpha male sporty types there (not as kind) are struggling more. I think it requires a well organised and self starter child. I think the traditional view of Eton vs Winchester typical boy is completely outdated now. Eton has become so much more academic and Winchester more well rounded. Obviously size of school and how far to walk to lessons is a consideration. For an organised child Eton is fine but might be a bit more of a stretch for certain children, including those who would benefit from sharing dorms for a number of years.
Your DS sounds lovely and like he would be happy at both schools though. We are applying to both and have an academic child who is very well rounded too and if we get both it will be very difficult to decide. It seems to me almost like Eton would be fine at Sixth Form and Winchester better for him up to GCSE.

Two stepsons were at Eton. Mixed results. I think it can do lasting damage to boys. You are required to be extremely socially resilient - the slightest chink in your confidence can turn into an internal chasm. I don’t think it’s healthy. But that’s just my opinion.

Bear in mind too that Winchester is about to admit girls. That is going to change things big time.

Thanks @Incognito22333. Think you’re right re 6th form and Winchester more nurturing early days. And there is no doubt both schools have moved on massively from how they were in my day.

@Ziegfeld
Interesting observation. My son is fairly sensitive underneath the easy going nature. I do worry about that in a bigger school. Am not phased by girls in 6th form- think it is great if Winchester do it well and sounds to me like a lot of thought has gone into it.

I have no issue with girls at Winchester but I do think they are very wrong to start with a handful of day girls in the sixth form. It might be convenient for the school but not for the poor girls, who will be in a tiny, highly visible minority, not fully part of the school and without critical mass to have sports of their own. In my experience, that set up breeds some really unhealthy behaviours among both boys and girls.

@Ziegfeld - Winchester is a rich area and there is just one girls’ independent school? Ie St Swithuns. Surely the issue is more for them and that high achieving day girls will jump ship in groups to WinCol? In London, girls schools have a problem with this - many girls prefer co-ed Sixth Form. Plus Winchester hardly has a reputation of “lad” culture. If the school put in lots of pastoral support for the girls, a good uniform and good sports, then I think it will work very quickly for them.

It is an issue for St Swithins too - yes - although that’s not of concern to OP.

I am afraid it’s a bit naive to say ‘good uniform, good sports (how, with such a small contingent?), pastoral care, it will be fine.’

As a tiny minority, the girls will be under a spotlight, all the time. Every boy in the school will know all their names and have an opinion on their relative attractiveness. They will often find themselves the only female in a class of very articulate, intellectually opinionated, confident boys, run by a male teacher - they will be expected to speak on behalf of all girls and women and their performance will be judged as representative of all women, in a way which is never expected of boys - while at the same time adapting to very different (male-oriented) ways of teaching and participating. In maths and science, even the brightest girls are likely to struggle and lose their confidence.

The truth - which coed schools like Rugby, Marlborough and Wellington have discovered - is that small minorities of objectified girls does not work - if you are going to do it you need equal status, equal resources, equal numbers.

How do schools like Westminster, Trinity etc. cope then?

6th form girls tend to be quite confident and even the older boys tend to be more serious, knuckling down for university. I have not seen any problems for the girls in boy heavy schools.

Our local school takes girls for sixth form and it is an overwhelming success - many more applicants than places so must be doing something right and confident happy girls . Delighted to hear that Wincoll is being so forward thinking.

Winchester does have some experience of girls in 6th form already, actually, as they have long had a policy of accepting daughters of staff. There were 1 or 2 when my son started a few years ago. I'm sure that experience will edify how they approach their first small cohorts until they have a boarding house ready and can increase numbers. (ps I'm sure the girls will have a dress code not a uniform, other than sports kit)

Some of the geekiest boys are probably to be found in College, feeling perfectly normal and I suspect their social skills benefit hugely from that. Talking with other parents on and off I think there are plenty of boys around who aren't necessarily super bright and are just enjoying finding their interests and growing into young men. Subject teaching is certainly accelerated but thoughtfully - eg the top sets in maths were given IIRC a term to settle in first year before set 1 really diverged; 6th form maths has about 5 different ways of doing maths +/- further maths at varied pace. I agree that the range of clubs and societies seems tremendous. Saturday night div isn't always what it might seem, my DS seems to have sussed that when you really need to hand it in by depends a lot on when your div don prefers to mark it (I'm not certain that's such a good thing to realise, except when there are concerts etc to get in the way). He has routinely been busy enough that Sunday becomes a general catch up day for him.

DS has several friends enjoying Eton. I think one consideration, as you're lucky enough to have the choice, is whether your son will enjoy having his own study bedroom, or would adjust to boarding more easily in a dorm.

In your shoes I think I'd contact both housemasters and seriously discuss the possibility of another brief visit before you finalise your choice. No idea if that would be possible but would seem a reasonable request to me.

Best wishes making a decision, either is likely to work out fine. In terms of prep for the entrance tests, if he's at a school that doesn't routinely send to either it might be prudent to check exactly what the syllabus requirements are. One of DDs classmates was sitting for Eton and it was realised somewhat late on that he needed level 3 maths at CE which they had been covering as extra with just a couple of students. (mind you I was most impressed to see that her prep had a student successful in Election recently - small non-pushy preps can do very well with individuals)

@mummy195

“6th form girls can be quite confident and even the older boys can be more serious, knuckling down for university. I have not seen any problems at boy heavy schools.”

I don’t know where to start with this. What utter rubbish.

First, if this were really the case, there’d be no “Everyone’s Invited’. Older boys are well able to fill in UCAS forms while also harassing, assaulting and abusing girls, or even just acting in an unthinkingly sexist or misogynistic way towards them.

Second, what point you are trying to make by saying “6th form girls are confident”? (Even if it were true, which is debatable). Do you think being confident is a magic force field protecting girls from sexism, abuse, even assault? Or is it supposed to make them mind less when it happens?

Thirdly, “I have not seen any problems in boy heavy schools”. I don’t know which all male-but-for-a-tiny-handful-of-girls boarding schools you have taught at, or had daughters at, but you must have had your eyes glued shut. Schools don’t want to advertise the eating disorders, mental breakdowns, half term abortions, assaults, bullying, invasions of privacy, inappropriate relationships - nor do they want to talk about the girls who arrive from single sex schools full of optimism, potential and self belief but then fail to live up to their potential in their time at boys schools because their confidence is shattered. Nor do they want to talk about the unequal opportunities - where certain activities or sports are reserved for boys, and there is third rate, poorly resourced provision for girls.

As I said, there are very good reasons why most of the schools (Haileybury, Marlborough, Rugby, Wellington) who used to have token girls in the sixth form no longer do so. They have gone fully co-ed so that girls are not an objectified, isolated minority and there is properly resourced provision for their needs. If Winchester had any sense it would either do the same, straight away, or stay as they are.

What is 'utter rubbish' are your posts.

First of all, 'Everyone's invited' was was not exclusively for '6th form girls, most certainly not just for those who had joined an all boys school in the 6th form. Infact it was about all girls (though not meaning all girls feels that vulnerable, or have had such horrendous experience). Posters also took pains to point out that it was not just about private schools, so not too sure why you are dragging it on here. Infact, one particular fully coed London school was noted to have the most complaints.
My point was most definitely not saying that just because these girls were 6th form, they could not be assaulted, but that quite more of them can stand up for themselves, and yes, I believe the older girls get, the more they know how to do that than younger girls. The older the boys get, the more they can maturely deal with girls around them and know what is to say and do as right or wrong or unPC.

Up and down the UK there are lots of 6th form colleges where girls and boys all attend together. There is also lots of schools who follow the 'diamond' module, which means that mix the boys and girls together from the younger years (nursery, pre-prep etc.) separate from around prep till senior yrs and bring them back together again at a-level/6th form as they prepare for uni. Some schools with an attached girls school do this, hence those who don't will have the 6th form girls come in.

In general, I do not think the girls are objectified and isolated at all. From what I have seen, they enrich the school and bring up standards if anything. Not saying it absolutely would not happen, but I do not see the picture of a majority of them being victims.

Also, some of the schools you mention, integrated for family reasons. It is just easier to have siblings all together at one school than move them at 6th form, as by then they would have already had their current school ethos etc. ingrained in them. I most certainly found the case of siblings at Marlborough and Rugby.

@Baggytrousers2021 Do you mind me asking whether you decided on Eton or Winchester, and on what basis?
We are facing a similar dilemma.
tks

What kind of CE score is considered a pass for Eton / Winchester please?

I’m an Old Westminster, from an intake not that long after they introduced girls, and I strongly agree with @Ziegfeld . Having girls as such a tiny minority and only in the sixth form makes it much harder for them to feel full members of the school in all sorts of ways. It creates a sense that the girls are a perk given to the boys when they reach the top of the school (each year of upper shell (y11) boys would sit in yard to assess “their girls” when they came in for open days and assessments and when the girls actually joined the school they were often subjected to boys holding up signs with marks out of ten etc).

The school was careful to select fairly robust girls and in some ways it was a useful
training for the world- a sort of baptism of fire. But it’s not something schools should be aiming for and I’m surprised Winchester has taken this approach. My suspicion is that it’s purely about results- bringing girls in at sixth form does improve A level results because it’s a lot easier to select candidates who are likely to
do exceptionally at 16 than at 7/11/13.

Having said all that, I loved a lot of my time at Westminster and I’d consider the school in its current form for my own DD (although they still only have girls in the sixth form, they have taken steps to improve things). I wouldn’t send her to the version of the school that I attended though, and I hope Winchester is alert to all the issues- they’re going to need to be,

I don't know what difficulties Winchester are going through - obviously they have some serious structural problems vis-a-vis the sneaky way they're introducing girls into the school. Certainly the introduction of girls after almost 6½ centuries is an indication that all is not well. Now don’t tell me all this nonsense about the presence of girls gives a true reflection of modern society, etc.

With my cynical hat on, I think it's probably a combination of improving results (which sounds mad given how great their results are, but it means a lot in an international market to be able to say "the best" not "one of the best") and a sense that introducing girls helps the school to produce well-rounded and socialised boys 😬

Hi there,
We went for Winchester in the end. Housemaster is excellent and size of the school a better fit for our son we thought. We felt there was more of a hand at the back at Winchester. Let’s see!
Found out yesterday that he has passed his Winchester Entrance exams too (from a school that really doesn’t send children to Winchester v often).
Good luck with your decision!