Secondary school moving down sets can anyone reassure me

[NautaOcts]

Feeling a bit concerned that dd is being failed academically by us/the school and don’t really understand how it all works.
She’s going into year 9.
Has just got some info through about timetable and is feeling really demoralised.
According to her she’s now in 3rd set for her science having been top set last year.
It’s made worse by all her close friends being in top set.

I’m more concerned about whether she’s not being supported to fulfil her potential. She came into secondary as a bit of a high flyer and her most recent report still showed target of 7-9 across the board. Last parents evening no concerns were mentioned and I came away thinking she was doing fine altho I know from her she didn’t get great marks in tests (but also didn’t revise).
If it’s her not putting the work in then we want to address that but would have thought something would have been mentioned to us?

It’s also not just science, she has been ‘moved down’ (according to her) in Spanish and English too and English has always been one of her strengths.

Any experience welcome, how should I approach this with school and should I be worried?
Would someone with a 7-9 target normally be in 3rd set?

I taught in a similarly large school, where we set across three/four classes in year 7/8, and all eleven in year 9 (although some were parallel). That meant that being in the top set in year 7/8 led naturally into being in any of sets 1-3 in year 9 (and quite possibly set 4 if they'd been near the bottom of the weakest of the year 8 set 1s).

Do ask for clarification, but try not to assume too much from the timetable. As you've already discovered with English, it may be a change to the groupings rather than her being demoted.

It's not wise to think you wait until GCSEs to put the work in.

Look at what's happened with the pandemic and teacher assessed grades. This could happen again.

Hopefully this will be a wake up call for your dd. She needs to learn how to revise for tests etc to build up for GCSEs.

I know it's difficult. I've been there with mine!

Set 3 in a 12 form entry would be bottom third of the top set in a 4 form entry.

Revision in science does often make a huge difference, so it's possible that pupils in last years set 2 and 3 DID revise and got really good results.

If this is the case now if the time to really put the effort in before they start the GCSE content or start looking at which pupils will do three sciences (timings and who does three will vary massively from school to school).

Or, from what the English teacher said, could they be going mixed ability across the board?

My DS is also about to start year 9. Sets in Year 8 were put on hold so that they could minimise mixing. He did well last year, considering the circumstances. I do believe he has not worked as hard as he could but I will give him a pass on year 8. B

But what I think is useful for both my DS and your DD is to make it clear that Year 9 counts. From here on in, they need to be thinking very carefully about their upcoming GCSE options and making sure that they knuckle down. Especially when revising for the next round of assessments!

There also could be some consideration as to whether she thrives on the challenge of being towards to bottom of a set or does better towards the top. I have a DD who was despondent at the bottom of a set and I asked for her to be moved down - she achieved better than she would have done. In most schools the top grades don't just come from the top set.

So she didn't revise for tests but her poor scores are the school's fault?

Mixed ability in English for GCSE years is utter madness. How can teachers possibly differentiate for such a wide ability range?

@Ericaequites

Mixed ability in English for GCSE years is utter madness. How can teachers possibly differentiate for such a wide ability range?

Why madness? My DC's school is mixed ability in English and gets basically the same results as the next nearest school which has a broadly similar intake and sets militantly. Clearly the teachers manage to differentiate without any problems.

There's no point speculating until you know what the sets actually mean. There might be three "top sets", with students shuffled to make roughly equal groups. There might be mixed ability sets. There might be issues about who is heading for triple science and who is heading for combined. It might be that the third set is actually pitched just right to help her fly (which doesn't always equate to being in the top set). Or they might have made a horrible mistake which needs addressing (although that is probably the least likely option).

Wait and see what explanation you get and then take a view.

In DD2/DD3's school they assess the sets for science each term, so children can move up or down throughout the year. It's worth checking how often they set at your school.

Parents get so invested in the set ‘number’ as if it is a badge of honour and then pass this on to their children.
Setting is so that children of similar ability can work at a pace most suited to them.
Teachers do not move people on a whim -there will have been children in ‘lower’ sets who achieved results that mean they need to move ‘up’. Should your DD have had the place instead so she could remain with her friends and retain her ‘status’ despite not putting in the work?

No you’re totally right she should be in the right set for her regardless of friends of course. She’s just upset that she’s kind of in a group of 4 (lots of ups and downs 🙄) and the way it’s worked out is the other 3 are together for most things and she’s not. But they all have an option in common so it’s not surprising.

I think I panicked a bit and just was doubting myself about whether I hadn’t put enough pressure on - have always tried not to put any pressure on because I think mental health is more important than marks and hers has been a bit fragile at times.
But can also see it’s dented her pride that she perceives friends are staying in higher sets plus she’s worried about it affecting dynamics in her group.

She doesn’t see it but I think it will be good for them to all be mixed up more and when she was having awful issues with this group of 4 last autumn term we talked about how they’d all be mixed up more this year and that would be good!

And everyone is right, I need to wait to get clarification from teachers.

It’s very hard to know how to support them as they get older isn’t it.
I remember my parents ‘making’ me revise and I just sat upstairs pretending 😬

Also we don’t always know when tests are coming up and they’re quite spread out so I remember with one of the science ones she was balancing revision with homework for other subjects and it kind of fell by the wayside.

Probably too helicopter parenting too but would like to see her returned paper as I remember one time on way to school we were talking about science stuff for the test and she seemed to really get the concepts but then didn’t get a good mark at all so wonder if it’s a question technique thing too.

Just to add a thought, has the school got a 2 or a 3 year KS2? If they have already taken options then it might be a matter of timetabling not just students but staff.

Eg if an MFL teacher teaches Spanish and French they cannot teach both languages in the same time slot, this can mean that the students who take Spanish are in group '1' for maths and the students who take French are in set '2', the setting has nothing to do with ability in maths but time tabling.

Nothing much to add here but I have moved kids down a set (not such a big school so two sets would be a significant drop) because they've seemed as though they weren't keeping up with the pace in the set above and might benefit from going a bit slower to get their confidence back up. This also usually ties in with people in the set below working their socks off and 'earning' a place in a higher set, they deserve a chance at being stretched and I'm afraid that means that if someone looks likely to benefit from moving down, then they will do the swap. I'm not just talking about top set moves btw.

She won't do very well at triple if she isn't in the frame of mind to put the work in OP as it's a seriously big chunk of stuff to learn and understand. So I would definitely make the mindset thing the focus of whatever steps you and the school take to support her in the first instance as that will make the biggest difference to her education generally. Year 9 gives you all plenty of time to get her feeling more positive and with better study skills in the run up to GCSE, better to have a dip now than later, for sure!

@UserStillatLarge-
If some students in mixed ability sets can’t access the texts due to poor reading skills, it’s not fair they slow down the more able students. I’m not a fan of comprehensive education at the secondary level. Not all students can or should be prepared for university.

Mixed ability teaching doesn't normally include students whose reading and writing is so far behind the norm for their age group that they can't access the texts/work at all - they are pulled out into intervention groups.

of course not all children can go to university, but that's not a decision that can or should be made in early secondary school. Much better not to limit horizons by the set that someone is in (which is the whole point of OP's thread really - that she's concerned in Year 9, her DC's options have already been limited).

@sashh

Just to add a thought, has the school got a 2 or a 3 year KS2? If they have already taken options then it might be a matter of timetabling not just students but staff.

Eg if an MFL teacher teaches Spanish and French they cannot teach both languages in the same time slot, this can mean that the students who take Spanish are in group '1' for maths and the students who take French are in set '2', the setting has nothing to do with ability in maths but time tabling.

Yes they start gcse courses in year 9, so you’re right there will be an element of complicated time tabling

The harsh reality could be that her "not revising" has come back to bite her! It isn't her teachers fault if she didn't revise, that's not a support issue, all students are expected to revise in order to perform comparatively well in tests. If her mate has revised, so has done better, and is therefore put into a higher set, that's the system working, and it's a life lesson for your DD. Alternatively, the numbers on the timetable might not reflect the set numbers. At some schools sets are still quite mixed ability in Year 9, and yeh set number on the timetable is not a reflection of ability. Could that be it at all? I wouldn't jump the gun just yet until you know she's definitely in a lower ability set, but if she is, it's probably because she didn't revise. Hopefully this will be a wake up call so she'll work harder this year and end up in a higher set next year.

I 100% agree Heyha, performance is very often down to mindset, it's so important. You can often predict student outcomes on that alone. If they get their head down and put work in, they'll do well, if they don't, they won't. School is about learning that lesson too, it does students a disservice to start looking around for other reasons for poor performance, when it's often to be found in the student's attitude. Teachers have a big role to play in shaping that attitude, but ultimately they can't do it all, the students need to follow their advice. I'd recommend parents of GCSE students read "The GCSE mindset" at the start of their course, to get a handle on what the evidence says successful students actually do.

@ejhhhhh do you have any tips for getting a reasonably intelligent but very low confidence/self-esteem pupil to get the 'GCSE mindset'? DD2 has ASD and says she can't revise because nothing stays in, so there's no point. She also doesn't quite see why she can't just give a one sentence answer to questions. My frustration is that if you get her talking about a subject she's actually quite inquisitive and insightful, but on paper it isn't easily going to show.

I think it would be a good idea to have a look at the websites of the appropriate exam boards and try the past papers on there, with with the mark schemes. Get her to use the specifications too, and work through those alongside revision guides or textbooks. When she's learnt and understood something on the specification, she can then tick it off. If she gets familiar with what is required, it may seem less daunting. Trying some Foundation past paper questions from the exam boards website should give her a confidence boost when she can answer them, then she can move onto the Higher papers if that's what she's aiming for. Scrutinizing the mark schemes is really important, to get a handle on what sort of answers are needed. Schools should be scaffolding this sort of stuff, but some are better at it than others. A good revision guide will give exam tips too. If you then Google the grade boundaries, your DD might be pleased to discover that the grade boundaries aren't as high as she fears. You can try some questions, then based on the % scored, see what she might have achieved on the exam. What year is she in? That sort of thing is best done when she's covered the content in school, so if she's in Year 11 she could try the exam Q's from year 10. With regards to her lessons going forward, she might find reading ahead helpful. If she finds out what the next lesson's topic is and reads the appropriate section of the textbook before it, that might make lessons less overwhelming and boost her confidence. Or she could read it after the lesson to consolidate her learning, she can find what works for her. Online resources like Seneca Learning are good for revision and quiz style questions to check understanding, which might help too. Ultimately though a proactive approach to her learning is always best, that's what the most successful students do. Just doing the work in lessons, and the minimum set is not enough for students to achieve their best. They need to be clear on what they need to know, put the effort into consolidating what they've done in lessons and getting it into their longterm memory via repitition, and focussing on areas of difficulty. Teachers will help them do this, but the highest achieving students take responsibility for their learning themselves.

Thank you so much for your reply. She's going into year 10, but the school has just reverted to the 2 year KS4 from 3 year KS4, so they won't have the luxury of the extra year for consolidation.

No problem. I can see the reasoning for a two year KS4 tbh. Year 9 can be a bit of a "lost" year, they don't remember much from Year 9 by time they're in Year 11, so it's pretty much repeated anyway!

My dd is just starting yr 7. From her primary performance she may well be put in sets near the top but I dont actually think that would necessarily be best for her. She is very academically able but also quite slow. I think the pace of the very top sets will leave her floundering, she would probably be better a few sets down from her comparably able friends .