maths lessons - what is the point?

[tatt]

I liked maths at school but now I look at my kids books and think why are they learning all this stuff that they will never use (e.g. calculating angles of polygons, heights of flagpoles and so on). Has anyone ever used this stuff?

Why don't they have them e.g. comparing the value for money of different mobile phone contracts?

Well, whilst I personally don't ever use this sort of maths but instead use a lot of finanical accounts based maths, my Dad, brother and lots of my other work colleagues do use this sort of maths.

They are plumbers and buidlers and heating engineers and these sorts of calculations are vital to putting in people's heating systems.

You don't necessarily know which types of maths a child will need to use when older, the foundations are put in place.

(And my brother can earn far more than me as a plumber than I can in an office)

My husband works with polygons all the time!

We always have studied this sort of thing - I did decades ago. There should also be a mix of things though, and my children do indeed do very practical maths like the example you gave.

I agree with previous poster, it's all about getting the basics of all sorts of maths. We all need the essentials for everyday life, but some people will indeed go on to use other sorts of maths in their working lives.

Trouble is, the stuff that is directly useful is often also boring as hell. Like in modern languages where they try to make it more relevant by cutting out literature and making you book endless hotel rooms and write endless postcards. It is not always the case that relevant=engaging (though of course some things are neither!)

As a physics teacher, I use that kind of maths all the time

so for those who do use it - can I have some practical examples? Because if there are real life applications I can't see why it's still taught just as a mind numbing set of questions.

I've never used any of it since leaving school - but I was shit at it.

I'd have much prefferred learning more mental aritmatic.

lol @ 'my husband works with polygons all the time'

they do bucket loads of mental rithmetic these days

For me one of the main objectives of learning is to be able to apply and use what you have learnt. Surely we are hoping to enable our children to look at something, work out the best way to do it using all the resources they have to hand/have learnt. If the curriculum existed purely of stuff that would only be used directly it would I think be very narrow and limiting. You mention comparing value for money of different mobile contracts. For me this is done by choosing from the many different things you have learnt and applying them. If you asked a group of children to do this I suspect they may all reach the 'correct'answer but may approach it in a different way.

Real life examples:

I am a town planner. I use geometry to:

• calculate the volume of people's extension plans (which is necessary in order to decide whether they need planning permission)

• estimate the heights of buildings/trees

• work out whether someone's new building will overshadow someone else's property

My husband is a Structural Engineer and routinely uses maths that makes my head explode - and I have a A-level equivalents in maths and physics.

I do know where you're coming from, because I know I have also forgotten far more than I remember from school maths. But I think it was good mental discipline, as well as being "useful".

I still can't get my head around logarithms though. What are they for??!??!?!

In the last week I have

Calculated invoices for Childminding Services
Sorted out a Tax & NI enquiry for a parent
Sorted out a WTC query for a member of staff
Calculated the amount of soil needed to fill a rhomboid flower bed
Calculated the amount of soil to be removed under a circular trampoline (to see if it would fill the flower bed if I sunk the trampoline down to ground level)
Worked out how much material to be used to make angel wings
Worked out how much wallpaper is needed within a hall (lots of odd angles)

That's a lot of maths

Students say this to me all the time. Teachers of other subjects get it much more infrequently, IME.

My answer? It's interesting (very subjective!) and it trains your brain to think logically (very useful!) and it is satisfying when you get it right.

I dispute that you need secondary maths for many many aspects of adult life, past being numerate (and many students are adequately numerate in this respect by the time they finish Year 6).

But I still love the subject and genuinely find solving all sorts of mathematical problems interesting and immensely satisfying and I like to share that with my students.

Logarithms can be used to simplify very difficult multiplication sums into much more simple addition sums, very useful before cheap calculators.

Useful in algebra to solve exponential equations too.

Bear with me on these practical examples as I just work in theoffice but my Dad, brother and colleagues

Have to work out the volume of things to calculate pressure and stuff and therefore know how what size radiator to fit or which gas installation is safe.

Also how many lengths of pipe to order .

Sorry, I'm a bit lost but and probably talking codswallop but I do know these calculation are important so that heating systems don't go BANG!

So perhaps we can conclude then that these things are useful but the teachers need to give the pupils practical examples to put things into the context of real life.

You are probably unlikely to directly apply a lot of the specific knowledge learned in school. I studied American history, early settlements, how to make a footstool and how to throw a discus. Haven't needed any of these specific skills in later life. But as the other posts point out, learning is more about acquiring a breadth of skills and knowledge as well as certain generic skills to enable us to select and apply skills in later life.

I make it a point to put my subject into context, it is fairly easy as it is science.

However the children actually need to understand the science before they can see the link between what they are studying and the real world application.

One of my worries with the new GCSE syllabus is that we seem to spend more time getting the kids to waffle about the ethical implications of , say the Human Genome Project, without giving us the time we need to make sure they actually understand the science under pinning it.

Science-lite.

Duh, you learn the difference between obtuse and acute angles, algebra etc specifically in order to forget it for 30 years then realise that you have to explain it all to your dc when they're doing their homework, so they can forget it for 30 years till they have to explain it to their dc so they can forget it for 30 years.......

yes I studied lots of things I don't need know. I can't remember much about American battles except that was just about all the history America seemed to have .

Why do we expect learning to be about breadth of knowledge and require a well rounded education? Everyone assumes its great - but why?

My children don't seem as turned off by other subjects as by maths and some of it they find interesting. So is the problem the teachers or the subject matter? With the exception of the periodic table there seems less that appears pointless in other subjects.

why do you think learning should be strictly utilitarian and instrumental tatt? you ask other people to justify the teaching of things you don't consider useful; but you don't give any justification for your own position

Yes, I use maths all the time. I write scientific software. All sorts of stuff needed for that - absolutely basic is 3D coordinate geometry, for drawing molecules and calculating the simplest things like bond lengths and angles. A recent example would be that I needed to write a bit of code to determine if an atom was in the same plane as another set of atoms or not.

And geometry is just the start of what you need for computational chemistry.

[and if you want to know why the heck anyone wants to do any of this in the first place, its used for things like designing drugs by pharmaceutical companies]

OK, I'm in a pretty specialised niche, but I'm sure the same sorts of things are required in writing computer games, CGI animation and so forth. All that stuff you see on screen, its made of numbers!

Comparing the value of money is doubtless useful but er, how much of a term could you possibly take up with that? Its just sums isn't it, which is the dullest part of maths.

actually I think learning should be fun - and too much of the time it isn't. That seems to be especially true in mathematics. If you can't make it fun you make it relevant - and no-one seems to be able to do that in maths either.

If someone could link teaching maths to designing computer games they'd have a lot more interested customers.

To teach children maths for real life would take more than a single term - mental arithmetic, mortgages, credit cards, insurance, enough statistics to at least understand how they are misused, tax - including inheritance tax, understanding tax credits and the benefit system. I'm sure I could think of more if it wasn't pre-breakfast.

Doing maths is about stretching the brain. The brain is like a muscle, if it not challenged it will never grow. I loved doing mathematical and algebra proofs when I was at school. In fact I prefered pure maths to applied maths at A-level, although I enjoyed both.

Prehaps though, there is no point in trying to teach a really thick child trignometry when they haven't mastered multiplication.

Before my son was born, I had a job where I was solving complex differentiatial equations. I was doing computational modelling of the human body. The GCSE I did in Latin helped with medical terminology.

My present job doesn't have an difficult maths, I am now an ICT technician. However the experience of doing maths to A-level and a Physics degree has given me good problem solving skills.

Most people only use about 5% of what they did at school. However you never know what 5% you will find useful.

I think exactly the same thing every thursday morning when I am sat in class breaking down fractions then doing somes like 33.2x4.77-12 argggghhhhhh its not good!!!