Anyone heard of Kumon?

[Wills]

And have you used it and what did you think? A friend of mine has just been going on about how wonderful it is. For me its a form a tuition and as a recent SAHM I'm shocked that I'm considering it. In my high fluting ideals I'm there so I should be the one helping my kids do well. I should be there at all times calmly helping them to fly where they are able and achieve what they can etc etc. In reality I have 3 kids and their clubs and their dinners. There are many evenings that just seem to disappear without me sitting down to listen to both of my school age kids. The moment I seem to sit with one the other two prompty go green eyed on me and demand attention. The image in my head of two little heads at the kitchen table focusing on work with me happily helping each of them when they need just doesn't work! (dd1 is 7 and dd2 is 4). I suppose none of this would have come to head if it werent that for the first time I don't feel that dd1's teacher is giving her enough. At her infant school she did spectacularly well but now at her juniors she's being passed over. Again I wouldn't worry but she's upset, she's really upset. She's asked me more than once to go in and tell her teacher she can do more.

So here I am considering tutoring.

Well, what do you think?

I think it is a kind of soup.

I understand that Kumon is relatively expensive, but it does work. It involves lots of repetition until the lesson is learned.

We use ExploreLearning. The difference is that you work on their premises and there are tutors available to help - ratio 1:6 - and it incldues English.

I'd suggest you speak to her teacher first, then possibly consider it if the teacher doesn't come up with anything.

I don't know anything about Kumon or Explore other than someone somewhere is making an awful lot of money

Would agree with that zog. But have spoken to her teacher and now feel I've been well and truly labelled pushy mum. Really didn't get anywhere and had no feedback from her either. Loads of soothing pleasentries but nothing that actually said yes we'll look at it or actually we've looked and she is at the right level because.... And certainly nothing has been communicated back to her

Anyone heard of kumon around tonight

"Kumon home page"

dont know anything about it just did a google

my dss used to do it for a bit.

i used to be the one who'd make him do it when he came here, so ive sat and helped him do it many times...

afraid i dont know the bigger picture as his mother doesnt deign to speak to me much [sadly for him imo] but i can answer q's about the work itself if youlike.

As far as my experience as a Maths teacher teaching children who've been to Kumon I wouldn't recommend it at all. The methods used in Kumon are as a previous poster mentioned repetitive based on the idea that if you do something over and over again you'll get it right eventually and will probably be able to do it quickly without thinking. My problem with it is that it goes against everything i teach in relation to understanding Maths, it completely by passes the why's and just concentrates on one way of doing something. This confuses a child if subsequently the idea is explained or taught via a different method. I haven't actually been to Kumon but have seen a little of the stuff and this is my opinion as a Maths teacher. It is probably one valid way of learning certain areas of Maths for some children, each child has a different way of learning, its just its terribly prescriptive and against my teaching beliefs that children should understand why and how maths works rather than just be told what to do, but then again that's my opinion. Kumon certainly suggests they get results so it depends on what you're looking for really.

From what friends have said it is a lot of hard work on your part keeping your child motivated to do the workbooks every night. You only go to see the tutor once a week to get the work marked and get some more.

It's SOOOOOOOO boring!

clutteredup, as a maths teacher, could you please look at my post in 'Primary' about how to teach a 6yr DS in year 2 his 2 x table? I'd link but my (Australian) keyboard won't let me! It IS a bit relevant to this threat so not a total hijack as it involves the concept of tutoring but for an under-acheiver. Thanks!

I was sent some information aboutKumon. It is so expensive! Something ridiculous like £45 a month!

Kumon is really, really boring, but very good at teaching a limited part of maths. It concentrates on rote learning of arithmetical facts. I've been using it for DS1 (now 9 and in Y5) for a couple of terms, as although conceptually he's a good mathematician he was quite slow at simple calculation. It's been a tremendous confidence booster to him as he is now really fast at the basics, leaving him free to concentrate on the problem-solving.

One gripe I have with the National Numeracy
Strategy (have yet to see how the ew Primary Framework pans out) is that there is not enough time spent rote drilling children. Some children of course have a knack for remembering maths facts, just as my DSs have a knack for remembering spellings. But the school specifically teaches spellings (and sets homework on them) but doesn't specifically teach maths facts. This is what Kumon does very well.

But it doesn't teach a deeper understanding of concepts very well, so it wouldn't work as all-round maths tutoring.

OK so a general hmmm then.

Clutteredup.... Hope you come back to this tonight. OK so are you able to give me some suggestions? I've bought loads of books from the likes of whsmith but much as I try it just seems to end up as a battle ground. She got a 2A in her maths SATs which I've taken to mean like a B grade but has absolutely no confidence in it whatsoever. She simply doesn't believe she can do it and basically gives up and doesn't bother. Simple maths like 10 + 21 are responded with immediate responses like 22 or 23 in a very bored voice. Both my dh and I have spent hours with her and tried all kinds of different things. Reading is different. Both dd1 and I love books. She loves curling up with me and her book and we take it turns to read a page each. We can happily do this for an hour or so. I'm struggling making maths the same. Saying that she wants to go further with the English and I simply don't know what else I should do?

Message withdrawn

Sorry Hulababy and Singersgirl. I'd started writing my response then had to deal with ds and came back to it. Its still a hmm though but singersgirl you're giving me hope that in maths at least it would give her confidence. Her infant school felt she was good at maths but that she doesn't bother. We had the theory that because she was so good at reading she found the effort of maths too much.

Cheers cod will go searching there as well.

Haven't read all the thread, but just wanted to add to the general Hmmm about Kumon. I feel it's a very clever company making money oput of parfent's insecurities, frankly.

And there's nothing at all wrong with a 2a at KS1 SATS - better than average!

I've posted about Kumon quite a bit before, and bink has too.

Avoid getting info from new Kumon-parents -- there is a powerful culty element to it, which wears off most people after a year or so!

It can be very good for children who have somehow failed to understand how numbers work Kumon takes them back to very basics and goes up in very slow increments until they are completely confident of the work they are set. It can also be very good for motivating children there are lots of stickers and rewards, and a time target for each sheet which can be great for dawdlers and faffers.

On the downside, it is very boring, and rather limited in scope, so only covers a very small proportion of the school maths syllabus. It's pure number work, so would probably help the 10+21= problem, but would not help a child make the transition from that calculation to a word-based problem iyswim.

And yes, it is expensive for what it it -- possibly worth it for the right child, but definitely not a panacea.

Seeker. I agree a 2a is fab but she doesn't seem to understand this and doesn't hear me. She comes home in tears saying she can't do the work when I and the teacher know she can. I'd hoped to find something that would build her confidence in herself rather than increase her capicity iyswim. This has been great and overall I'm definitely getting the impression that its culty - frogs you hit the nail on the head! So what next. Oh and I'm going to start a new thread about her English as I can see already that Kumon wouldnt give her anything in terms of her English but I'm still left wondering.

Frogs I am wondering though if taking her back to basics wouldn't be the best thing for her. She has the capacity (hence the 2a) but not the confidence and (unfortunately) loves stickers! Possibly 6 months of building her confidence back up is exactly what she needs just I'm gnashing my teeth that I've not somehow found the way to do that myself. Maybe I should try again!

I didn't mean it was actually culty, Wills! But it is very Japanese, and has that all-embracing, all-for-the-corporate-ethos thing going on. And the people who run the individual groups tend to be quite intensely evangelical about it, understandably enough, since they're putting their own money on the line (it's run as a franchise).

I really wouldn't rule it out in the circumstances you describe, but if you do start it you need to keep going for at least 6 months to give it a fair chance. Loads of people seem to do it for a year or so, and then drop it, contrary to Kumon publicity.

Hi Wills, it sounds like a motivation issue really with your DD as the work set at school is making maths boring. You are not to worry about her ability but I can see that you are worried that if she find Maths dull she'll fall behind as she won't work. I am particularly interested in what motivates children to learn Maths and am doing a MEd which I am starting to base around just this. She's too young to be put off maths this normally happens when they move onto secondary level where maths can become a bit boring in the way it is taught. It is almost certainly an issue with how it os bring taugh and she is clearly not being provided for, finds probably that it is too easy and just dull. The best thing to do rather than tutoring at this stage is to find things that are Maths related to get her interested again. Has she done Sudoku's they are a great way of playing with numbers and are actually logical reasoning rather than Maths based but its a good strart. Cooking is a good way to introduce the idea of changing grams to kg, looking at quantities and propotions, changing recipes for a different number of people. Probability I find best done in the way of eating smarties, what is the likelihood of getting a red one next time etc, you can simplify it by taking all but the red and orange ones out to start off with. look at how fast you're diving and talk about speed and time and distance, most things that involve primary maths occur in day to day life. its really about making it real and interesting. shapes and their properties are found all over the place and tessellation is a fun drawing activity ( where you put same shapes together to see if they fit with no gaps) There are also lots of websites which have fun maths activities for different stages - some are US sites but the grades are almost comparable - don't have any links off hand but google 'fun mahts activities for primary children' or the like.
I wouldn't recommend tutoring for primary unless a child is really struggling, but just doing fun things which relate to Maths will help with her learning and hopefully inspire her enough to do more.At this stage, especially as she has already achieved a 2a at KS1 it is more important that she enjoys it. What a shame the teacher is making it boring for her.
Good luck

Maths resources suggestions on this thread

did a great big tedious post and the computer ate it (wisely, probably)

summary form: Kumon Maths is quite good for training a brain which is not instinctively numerate to "see" numbers as quantities - I know this, because it's what it did for me through a year & a half's really really boring marking of dd's really boring worksheets. But I am sure there are lots of other resources for the same training (if that's the training that's needed) - Kumon's value is that because you pay for the (daily) worksheets you have an incentive to get your child doing them, so that the training is necessarily delivered in a steady disciplined way.