Do I need a particular tutor for a particular independent school

[fluffyredtoes]

I'd rather not get into the ins and outs of tutoring but nearly everyone I know has one anyway and as dc goes into year 4 I'm starting to think about how to prepare for entry to super selective independents.

Do I need a specific tutor for the desired school or do I just get a tutor to get on with it all.

Fwiw I know some state dc make it in without a tutor but I'm pretty sure allowances are made in that scenario, my dc is at a top prep and it's unlikely any shortcomings will be brushed under the carpet when it comes to admissions.

I'm a teacher in an independent school. When my sons are old enough to apply for independent senior school (we will do state for primary) I will pick a tutor very carefully. I tutor children for GCSE, but wouldn't feel experienced enough tutoring for entrance exams. Bear in mind there is also often an interview and even sometimes acitivites such as group debates. Look at the success rates of tutors, find out where the children they've tutored have gone to, and you could even ask to speak with a parent of someone they have tutored. It's tricky though, as tutoring is unregulated. Also, according to research, the majority of pupils are tutored for entrance exams (including state school pupils).
Good luck!

Thanks @surreygirl1987 me and dh are feeling out of our depth. Both from state schools and no clue what's expected to get dc into any of the schools that are the usual destinations.
School does help but I think the parents also have a say in steering their dc into the best schools by ensuring the internal prep tests have good results so that the HM can recommend dc for each particular school.

Are you thinking of London schools in particular? I think a good, solid tutor experienced in entrance exams, esp top independents and grammars, should be able to prepare child for ALL schools.

I agree with @njshore to an extent but worth bearing in mind that some schools' entrance tests are very different to one another. If I was forking out a lot for a tutor, I'd ideally want one with a track record of success for preparing children for the specific exam they were going to sit. I used to set and mark entrance exams for my previous school, and I found that we had a very different approach to the independent school two miles away! That said, if you can't find anyone to fit that description, you'd probably be fine as @njshore says.

It goes without saying than an “experienced” tutor with years of experience would most likely have prepared for a particular top school before. There are only so many “top” schools, esp when people apply to more than one.

Just ask for references, their results should speak for themselves. But your child is only 8, please don't pressurise them so young, let kids be kids - if they are bright enough for a super selective they don't need to be hot housed now

I actually think most dc are tutored for entry into these schools. I'm looking at girls schools. Boarding and London day we're looking at a few including WA CLC St Paul's day and a backup plan school which we haven't decided on yet.

Currently narrowing them down. I will make my dc work hard but if they don't get in I will accept that too. I know there are exceptions who have never had a tutor etc but when you're in the thick of prep this is simply not the reality of the majority.

Also no one wants to discuss this subject in RL so I'm stuck trying to work out exactly what we have to do to stand the best chance. We will accept if dd doesn't get in though and will also have a backup plan.
Also does anyone know if the senior admissions help at this stage ie what you need to do to get in or do they expect you to have gained a place first?
Thanks

So you’re paying for your daughter to go to a prep school and you still want to pay for a tutor to get them into a senior school? Why don’t you ask your daughter’s form master/mistress how they are doing and if they need any extra help? I know that lots of children were tutored at prep school but the majority ended up where you’d expect anyway, there were no surprises with children who were middle of the pack being tutored into SPGS for example. Are you working very long hours and unable to spend time with her?

@LizziesTwin it's more that if there's potential to bring dd up to scratch why would I not go for this option? I feel better if I have someone who knows the ropes guiding my dc. I can help but I don't really know how to help.

We do get a meeting with the head in year 4 and the school is helpful but I also know dc in my dd class who have magically gone from a much lower level to a higher level using tutors. I don't believe the majority really leave it down to the prep school alone?
My dc is summer born and I doubt very much will stay at the top without any extra help as the work gets harder.

Our DS is one of those you mention who got into a similar school from state primary with no specific tutoring, so you might not think our experience is relevant, but anyway...

We did a bit of tutoring in Year 5, but that was more to prep for state grammar entrance. We stopped the tutoring after a while because we frankly thought it was a waste of money - DS's practice scores were only improving a little, and this seemed to be largely because of familiarisation and speed, which he could easily practise at home - the few bits of content that were new (eg the odd maths concept) we could cover ourselves.

So, when it came to prepping for independent entrance, we decided not to bother with a tutor. The exam papers were significantly harder than the 11+, but there were past papers available so we worked through those at home, which did involve quite a bit of time on our part (teaching some new maths concepts, trying to model how to answer English comprehension questions etc) . He definitely needed that practice and input. Whether the school 'made allowances' in the exam I don't know, because I don't of course know how he did compared with others - but anyway, he got in. He's doing well and is in the top sets for maths/languages etc, so I have no concerns that he was given a place beyond his ability. It's possible that they were more forgiving of any errors/lack of polish in the entrance exams, particularly in the English paper, which was the most different from what he'd done at school - I suspect his maths/reasoning performance would have been pretty strong without any positive discrimination. With the interview, we trusted the school's advice and didn't do any prep at all.

So, based on our experience, it's not necessary to have specific external tutoring - but equally I wouldn't have wanted to send DS into the exams without a fair degree of preparation, so we did need to do that ourselves at home. In your case, though, it may be that your prep will do this for you?

Are you intending to tutor your daughter all the way through secondary school? I have 3 children who all went to super selective independent schools and some of their friends were tutored the whole time. Surely it’s better to go to a slightly less academic school and have more freedom? Able children go to the best universities regardless of the school they went to, they really do. In some ways your child could be penalised for going to a super selective at uni entrance stage as the universities are trying to even things out. I have seen too many anxious children trying to live up to their parents expectations & dreams.

@walnutwhipple I have been told admissions to some schools have a slightly different allowance for state educated dc which I would have thought makes sense so I'm not sure it is relevant unfortunately.

@LizziesTwin I don't know if I would need to throughout senior school? I had tutoring throughout my high school years so maybe, for me it definitely helped give me the confidence to get through my final exams knowing I knew what was required in the exam and I knew I was going to get top grades because I'd had so much practise, again more a confidence exercise than anything and I only went to state school. It didn't bother me to have tutors tbh I actually requested them myself!

I'd probably go with whatever is the norm for the school. I imagine at boarding schools there's more chance the school prepares them for their future without too much outside interference but I doubt there are no tutors whatsoever involved even at these schools.

I'll cross the university bridge when it comes to it I suppose as it's all changing atm.

If your child is at a private prep I'd be concerned that the school isn't "prepping" them sufficiently for the entrance exams. If you are already paying why would you need to pay extra for tutors?

@iminthegarden it's less you have to and more a choice to make mine and dc life easier in the long run. Preparing at school and outside would be better for me. Communicating with our school is much more difficult since covid unfortunately. I don't want to move schools so I will be getting a tutor regardless, it's more do I need a specific one for a specific school that I was asking about.

OP it sounds to me like you are maybe a bit lacking in confidence in your own and your DC's abilities - perhaps the fact that you were 'only' state educated and had a lot of tutoring yourself has contributed to that? I accept that there are some different allowances for state applicants at some schools, but equally I think that DS got to a pretty high standard on the past papers with home prep alone (he got a scholarship so presumable did reasonably well). It will depend on your own available time and academic confidence, but we're both state educated and felt able to prep DS at home. IMO tutors might be helpful in some cases but I think it's easy to set too much store by them - they're not a magic bullet. If your DC has the kind of natural ability you need to enjoy/thrive at a school like St Paul's, then I'd have thought that a good prep plus some home practice would be enough without tutoring on top? At least, the prep school should surely be able to give you advice on appropriate secondary school choice and whether additional tutoring is necessary.

Sorry, cross post. In answer to the specific question, I'd have thought that surely a decent tutor could prepare a child for any school, unless the exams for that school are particularly unusual.

We have dc in independent schools (one having gained scholarship) and my partner works as an entrance exam tutor. It is more than just academically being up to scratch, it is about the entrance exam (as you correctly pointed out), interview prep, gearing answers towards the ethos of the chosen school and building confidence as well as ensuring that each child stands out. This is all quite different depending on which schools you are aiming for. I think if you want the best chance for entry, then yes a well chosen tutor is important.

@LushHeaven is spot on. The majority of pupils at my current independent school had tutors for entrance exam but not necessarily during their time in the school (unless really struggling with one specific subject). If you can afford it, why not? If you're unimpressed you can always cancel.

I think you're over thinking it all- especially if you're at a Prep. In my SW London area there are 3 or 4 tutors and they prepare for all the schools. But it is mainly exam technique for the pupils at state Primaries. Some of the kids at prep schools do use tutors but it doesn't seem to make much difference to outcomes. In both DCs classes it was obvious which kids were on the SPS/SPGS/KCS/LU type path and those who weren't and no amount of tutoring would have made a difference. (obviously there are some who super heavy tutoring does may make a difference but then it will be pretty miserable for them going forward- I know of quite a few boys at SPS Juniors who have regular tutoring outside school.)
Different schools are looking for different children as well, hence why a DC can get into St Pauls and not LU, KCS and not St Pauls, KCS and not Emanuel, SPGS but not WHS or PHS. etc etc.
IESB muddied the water a bit this year though.
I'm not sure state school pupils get an easier ride but I think sometimes they are at an advantage because they are not prepped to within an inch of their lives. One admissions head I spoke to said that they get very sick of seeing the same essay written again and again because some prep schools give templates for every eventuality and also interview answers that are recited in a parrot fashion.

@0ldandgrey I agree with you. I had a chat about this with a teacher I met socially who's involved in entrance interviews, and she said they get very weary of the over-prepped prep school kids who turn up with their 'competitive thoughtful listening' attitude in group discussions or their improbable great concern for the situation in Syria, and how easy it all is to spot a mile off (and equally easy to penetrate). Also, the thing with tutoring is that there is a tendency for people to post-rationalise their decisions. So, someone who uses a tutor and gets a place, it's 'thank goodness we used a tutor, it made such a difference'. Or, so and so who didn't use a tutor and didn't get a place, it's 'that's what happens if you don't use a tutor'. But nobody knows whether those children would have gained/failed to gain a place if they had/hadn't used a tutor. IME the parents who tutor but don't get the school they want, tend to stay fairly quiet on the subject.

You have fallen into a trap. You shouldn’t need to tutor. If she at a prep then they should be doing all the work to prepare her. Make sure your DD is doing what she needs to at school and is relaxing, resting and having fun too.

I write as the mother of a DD who was at a bog standard independent primary school and got offers from everywhere she applied including a scholarship from NLCS, who was not tutored for one moment. Trust your DDs school, trust her and trust the schools who are assessing pupils to make sure they will fit.

You don’t want her to go anywhere that isn’t right for her.

@LushHeaven thanks
@walnutwhipple I didn't mean to offend and I certainly didn't mean your ds didn't get as good results what I meant was the schools know full well prep dc have help be that at school or with tutors so for example on interviews they may not reject a state school dc for saying something a prep dc might not get away with.

I am not insecure I don't think, I liked having tutors myself and found them very useful and also helped breakdown the subjects on a one to one basis for anything I didn't quite catch or understand in the school day.

I am pro tutor tbh and be that because I'm insecure or not my dc will have them whenever they need them or whenever I think they might benefit.

As for seriously prepped dc, perhaps I therefore do need someone who gets dc into a particular school to avoid this happening, someone who has a track record of getting dc into a school most likely won't produce overly 'prepped' dc, the older dc I know who have been through the process successfully have all been tutored but their siblings are in my dc year so good luck to me trying to find who they used, it's all very hush hush in our school but some parents have told me they did use tutors and these are for the dc who are now at the mentioned schools so the schools aren't necessarily anti tutor unless they didn't notice.

You aren’t listening. So I will say this not for you but for the readers who read this thread later on.

The highly academic schools you are after can tell if a child is the naturally bright kid they are after, or whether they are a decently average kid who has been tutored to sound like the bright kid.

Your DDs friends may well all have been tutored. But that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have got in if they hadn’t been tutored. Tutoring might have made no difference at all.

But what tutoring will certainly do is put stress and work on your DD that she probably doesn’t need.

It's been a long long time since I taught the year group that did entrance exams in an independent - but one of the key things is to make sure your child actually has a range of stuff about themselves that they can talk about at interview/open day. It's really really obvious but the schools will see past a "I like reading" and be asking for elaboration on that and the like and it's something that tends to be a bit forgotten about.

Oh don't worry OP, I'm not offended at all . And I do agree that there is a degree of difference in how some schools approach state vs prep school applicants. But I also think it's true that there is a massive industry invested in making parents believe that tutoring is necessary (and indeed that prep schools are necessary), and also that there are lots of parents who've invested a lot of money who have an interest in justifying their investments, and that all this is not as true as some people believe. A case in point - I have a friend who's just moved her daughter to a prep school in Year 4 because she wants to give her the best chance of passing her 11+. Now, I have no doubt at all that the DD would have passed very easily anyway, because she's exceptionally bright. But when she does pass, I also have no doubt that the parent will be convinced that she did the right thing in moving her - whereas I very strongly believe that it will make bugger all difference to whether she passes (whether there are other reasons for moving her is another question). So she will become another contributor to the 'prep schools get you into grammar school' argument.

Ultimately, I think the admissions teams at the kind of schools you're talking about are really very good at spotting the children they want, state or prep.