Which school for academically average DC?

[Circle3]

DD in Year 6 at a state primary. She is very creative, good at English but struggles with Maths and often gets 45% in school NFER test papers and other assessments. She has Maths tutoring, but she rushes, guesses and goes to pieces with problem solving etc. She struggles a bit with reading (avoids doing it). She loves Art, DT, Music and likes drama, dance and gymnastics. She has a bubbly, fun personality and is fairly good at making friends but sometimes can annoy other kids with her exuberance. She pushes herself to try new things, but can panic and feel nervy and under confident at times. Our finances have improved hugely in the last few years, and we have realised we could now afford private school, probably for other DC when the time comes. We don't fit into the typical private school mould round here...we are not hugely aspirational in lifestyle choices, don't go on expensive holidays. I am hopeful that there are all types in private school though (perhaps naive!!). We just want DD to feel secure and be happy. We have 2 main options for secondary, well 3 but the last I have ruled out:

1. Local state comprehensive. Good OFSTED but GCSE results show that just over 50% of pupils achieve level 5 and above in English& Maths GCSE. Just under 50% get Attainment 8 score. Great drama and dance departments. Have heard that if your child doesn't get into top/middle sets for English and Maths, it's very hard to do well with behaviour and distractions being a big issue. DD knows quite a few kids going here and is excited by it. Can go on to excellent local sixth form college.

2. Local private school. This is the only private school we are considering as we like the ethos. Creative subjects are given equal emphasis to more academic subjects. DD has been offered a place. Up and coming school, becoming more academic and expanding. Good pastoral care and not too high pressure. There are other more competitive schools in the area with stronger results. Class sizes of 20. Much smaller school than number 1. Pretty good results, similar or slightly better than school number 3. Can stay for 6th form or go to excellent state sixth form college. Around 60% from private schools and 40% from state schools. School is getting more popular and more difficult to get in. Pupils travel from further afield than school number 1. DD will know a few going here, but not strong connections. DD is quite keen on going. We know we might not fit in but DD is very sociable.

3. State Catholic school with excellent reputation. 45 min journey, with complicated changes. Excellent results. 72% grade 5 or above in Maths and English, 60% Attainment 8 score. Possibly slightly narrower scope to be creative. Daily mass. Some concern over pastoral care/bullying. Few kids from our local area will go here. Think DD will feel burntout by all the travelling. Just not really 'us'.
   All schools are co-ed.

I'd be very grateful if anyone can share their wisdom/experience on which schools might suit our situation. Thanks for reading.

This is not what you are asking, but have you considered or has her school suggested that their could be any additional support needs? Disliking reading, rushing maths, having some issues with peers sounds a lot like my ds who was identified as having dyslexia around 7 years old (and is being assessed for ADHD)
Whichever school you end up in, it's important that each child is supported with whatever issues they may have, major or minor.

Well the first one is definitely a bust. I don't understand why you describe the better achieving Catholic one as "not really us", though, so it's hard to say what you consider important.

Personally I would be very tempted to choose school 2 if I could definitely afford it to GCSE. My DD has just finished Y11 at a fairly high achieving school (not as good as 3) and she has said similar about lower sets. A friend of hers is a similar ability and has experienced very few problems in the lower sets of her private school.

On the other hand you could do school 1 with a tutor to support. Also how children are in Y6 isn’t necessarily an indicator of how they will be in Secondary. DD left primary slightly above average (105 or so in SATs) and is now expected to get mostly 7 and 8s. I think she has had a broader overall education going to a state school, she is really driven and has an excellent work ethic as the majority of her school friends. Her friends from private school are lovely but much less independent and seem to have a lot more support/ spoon feeding. This is only my observations of a small group though!

Good luck with your decision. If I had money spare I think it would go on lovely family holidays and experiences as my experience of state has been mostly very positive.

Well from the way you describe them theres only 1 option because you rule out the good state school on travel time (IME 45 mins journey is fine and quite normal each way). The first one is awful so that leaves private school which you are concerned she will be looked down on because you don't have nice holidays which doesn't seem a good reason not to go.

Thanks for your responses. I'd love her to have the broader education that she'd get at state school. But I think @Uptheduffy you are right, there may be other issues. I'm not sure if she doesn't like reading just because she can't find the right book that interests her. She seems to be able to read when she has to eg: doing a reading comprehension...but can't read by herself at bedtime. She can be super loud and dominant at home eg: won't listen to me at all when I suggest she does her hair in a certain way, will talk over me/drown me out with her voice, will not take any advice, will do the wrong page in her homework book because she is impatient to just get it done and didn't check...I just thought this was average pre-teen behaviour but perhaps there are elements of ADHD. Her writing is normally fine, except for sometimes missing the ends of words (thought that was due to rushing/not caring). Could the Maths issue be discalculia or a processing disorder?
I suppose I'm scared to get her assessed as I'm not sure she has severe enough issues to warrant any useful support, and she may find the process damaging.

Am I missing something? If she is in year 6 you can only have a place at one state secondary, surely?

What is progress 8 like at state school? That takes intake into account in a way which level 5 and above doesn't.

I don't see how you can be siting on two state school offers, unless you have one and the other is a newly arrived waiting list offer.

I would discount school 3, because it is a complicated journey. It'll be a major downer on a teen who cannot easily hang out with her friends after school. If your heart sinks a bit at the journey (especially during morning rush hour) don't inflict it on a teenager

I also don't quite understand how you can be at this place in year 6.

It isn't level 5 and above at GCSE you need to be thinking about for English and Maths, it is Level 4 and above. Also you need to look at the figures for the individual subjects rather than the 'both'.

Local private school. They cater to a much more diverse range of families than you might expect - you will fit in just fine.

Some areas still go up to secondary at year 8 and I know a couple of schools that are year 9.

Hi, Sorry for the confusion! Yes, I didn't really explain very clearly. She has a place at school number 1 which we have accepted. That was where we thought she was going until a week ago. She has been offered a waiting list place at school number 2 last week. I put school number 3 in the mix because I am panicking a bit, and I thought somehow if we really decided that was the best place for DD after all, we could get a last minute place (we are in a feeder school).

I am having a real problem trying to decipher league tables as grades 4,5,6,7,8 are still like another language to me...I'm still trying to equate them to grades C, B, A from my GCSE days. I will go and check out the Progress 8 scores. Thanks everyone.

3, not a pass, old D & higher E, good enough for a level 2 course at college, need to retake Math & English language if at this level
4, a pass, a low C
5, a solid pass, high C low B
6, a good B, good enough to do an A level in subject for humanities
7, an A, good enough to do A level in maths/sciences
8, top A, old A* v.good
9, top of old A*, unnecessary pressure

I would go for the private school from your description if you are sure you can afford it for her and all younger siblings at least to GCSE level . Also maybe make clear to your DD now - you'll have to transfer back to state for A levels.

School 1 - 71% grade 4 and above in English and Maths, Progress 8 score is 0.18

School 2 - 100% grade 4 and above in English and Maths, Progress 8 score N/A (not sure why)

School 3 - 90% grade 4 and above in English and Maths, Progress 8 score is 0.92

I did just read in the GSCE options booklet for the private school that if they didn't achieve grade 4 or above in Mock exams, they may be asked to drop the subject. I think that's not for Maths and English though as they are compulsory. It sounds harsh, but I think that's pretty standard in private school?

@TeenMinusTests Thanks for the explanation, that really helps. Going to go and thoroughly check finances now...

Asking someone to drop a subject is a good way of keeping pass rates up.
On the other hand, I completely agree that dropping a subject you are failing at can help you concentrate on better grades in the other subjects.

@Circle3 I don’t think school 3 will be an option for you to be honest - with results like that it will probably be oversubscribed, feeder school or not. That is well above average for progress 8 (which is the first measure you should look at). You might have got in if you had put it as your first choice when applying.

I wouldn’t go for school 1 as it sounds like your DD will be in lower sets. Their progress 8 is ok but not amazing.

I’m normally very anti private but in your position, if you can afford it, go for the private school. It sounds like your heart is set on it and it matches your values.

“ I did just read in the GSCE options booklet for the private school that if they didn't achieve grade 4 or above in Mock exams, they may be asked to drop the subject. I think that's not for Maths and English though as they are compulsory. It sounds harsh, but I think that's pretty standard in private school?”

This is an aside but this is how private schools cheat the system and give themselves the appearance of being better than state schools. They’re massaging the statistics and in doing so opting out of their job: teaching children.

In a state school, however reluctant to learn your DC might be, teachers will see themselves as responsible for the child’s educational outcomes.

It’s also worth adding that if you suspect there might be SEN issues, private schools can be a bad option as you might be charged for the additional support that your child needs (ask for the school’s policy on this). This might be cynical but I think it’s private schools’ way of encouraging SEN pupils’ parents to move on. Not ethical. Private schools are businesses, and money creates a huge conflict of interest when it comes to needing to choose between doing the right thing and making a business decision.

Finally the reason there is no prog 8 score for the private school is that they probably do a mix of traditional GCSEs and iGCSEs which means you can’t compare stats. I think they do this intentionally so that they can’t be compared (unfavourably) to really good state schools.

Like I said before, I still think school 2 might be your best option, but do inform yourself about SEN policy and ask them how many pupils dropped a subject in y11 or something to gauge an idea of how common that is.

Yes I agree, I would forget about School 3, it will be full with stats like that, and at 45 mins away you are not going to be top of the WL. Last-minute spaces not really a thing in that scenario.

So, state or private? It's usually a fairly clear choice tbh. That progress 8 is not too bad at the state, positive is good. I would never want to spend £70k on private education as from my observation it's generally not worth it, but of course many disagree. You need to do sone maths and yes, check out how many kids dropped subjects.

School 2 - 100% grade 4 and above in English and Maths, Progress 8 score N/A (not sure why)

Because many/most pupils will not have done SATS (preps don't) so there is no adequate standard baseline at entry, from which to assess progress

Thanks @PaleGreenAndBrightOrange and @clary. I didn't put number 3 school as first choice initially as the focus on academic achievement to the detriment of creativity (something has to give!) concerned me. I think it could be a continuation of her primary school and she would still end up with 45% in Maths and probably Science too, and she would be in the bottom sets with low self esteem. I've been wobbling about it a lot though (without telling DD) as most of her classmates are going and the results are undeniably excellent, and it's free (gah!!!) Personally, I've run out of steam with the Catholic part...too much RE, cliquey, closed attitude at times, not enough creativity and pretty old fashioned when it comes to SEN.

Some elements of my last sentence could potentially describe the private school though. I've read on forums here that the private school is no longer dyslexia friendly. I'm fairly sure we would have to pay for any SEN support if DD needed it, and I don't think they like to stray from their basic model of education. Having said that I've heard that teachers are very caring and supportive, and there's lots of individual attention. DD doesn't have an EHCP, primary school haven't made any hint /mention of SEN to us (but they are quite inexperienced with SEN as a school I think). My gut feeling is that DD may have some sort of processing issues with Maths, and a short attention span when it comes to reading. Where does SEN begin though? How does it sit with an acceptance that all children have different neurological strengths (hence range of abilities)? I think she would benefit from a calm environment, high expectations but not too much pressure and good teaching.

You're totally right about the manipulation of figures in the private sector and the injustice of it all. I will go and ask (if I dare!!) how many pupils drop subjects in Year 11. We have 2 weeks to decide with the private school.

I know I'm being defensive and emotional about our situation. I am panicking. I don't think Covid has helped. DH thinks school number 2 (private) would be great.

Incidentally, DD's primary school is totally run like a business. In September, at the beginning of Year 6 she was asked to attend a catch up after school class. This happens every year I think (not sure if they were using Covid catch-up funding for it this year). The sessions didn't happen because of lockdown 2, although she did attend a few Zoom Maths group sessions with a TA. When I asked the class teacher about the catch up sessions, she said "Oh, they aren't happening this year because we are not doing SATS"!!!! She said "but she is getting support with the TA every day for Maths". I think this is just standard provision though, where they do pre-teaching and catch-up sessions as part of Maths every day. I am shocked at the attitude of the headteacher...he doesn't care as low achievement will go under the radar this year. Last time, they got 100% of pupils achieving expected standard in reading, writing and maths.

I have always thought that the dynamics of the class aren't helping, very boy heavy (3:1) who are confident, loud and clever. I had hoped that DD would fly if she went to school number 1, but recent test papers are worrying me.

Thanks @AnotherNewt too. That makes sense!

OP, have you asked about SEN provision at school 1? My friends child is dyslexic and is in a private school but they're not really supporting her needs in the areas she struggles with. Schools my children attend (state) have excellent Sen provision and children achieve highly. It's worth exploring a bit more before making a decision.

@Mummacake I've just been looking on the website and they (school 1) have quite a few SEN programs in place, including an Accelerated Reader Program, Reading group and Specialist Literacy teachers. The trouble is I'm not sure DD will qualify for any of this as I'm not convinced any SEN will be identified. I'm worried she might just coast.

Might be worth contacting them and having a chat. They may be able to provide pointers for you.