Can there be a eureka moment in maths (sorry numeracy) similar to the "I've got it" moment in reading (sorry literacy) ?

[indignatio]

The title really sums (sorry for the unintentional pun) up my question.

Yes...happened to me about 3 months before my O levels. Was in the bottom set at my school and my Dad spent hours and hours teaching me maths and I still didn't understand and then suddenly it all fell into place and I got an A! Love maths now - really think it is fab!

My sister says my niece had one at about 8.

I still haven't got it, and I doubt I ever will.

Standing by while your dc do maths can make you scream with frustration. I did actually scream with frustration this morning when dd wrote 87+ 9 = 31 and various interesting equations like that. Worse even: the basic basic stuff like 42+ 5 = 38

I just cannot even IMAGINE where she went wrong and got those answers. I don't even CARE anymore. I am sick to death of her school maths. It is such a gddm PITA. Ah that feels much better...

I don't know why dc find it so difficult, other than the weird way they teach it these days. I can't remember having been the least bit fazed by it at primary school and I'm no mathematician but dd has a constant struggle, punctuated by "I hate maths! Mummy I REALLY hate maths". Don't blame her either, she doesn't have a clue with this adding up to 10 and subtracting back to 100 and double/nearly double and whatever else they're supposed to be learning.

I don't know of any dc in her class that can do it either.

absolutely
I find 'eureka' moments are way more common in maths than literacy (which tends to be a more gradual thing ime)

Thank you all

SSSandy2 - you don't sound like you are having your best ever day - sorry

JaninLondon, do you know what your sister meant regarding the eureka moment? Was is like others have said, grasping a particular concept, or more just an inate understanding of how numbers relate to one another.

yes - I think so. Once you realise there is not one rule - there are lots of ways of doing it - then you realise you can play with the numbers and you get confident that you know how it works.

I think (maybe wrong) that many teachers do not have that understanding and confidence themselves and so tend to teach by rote.

I used to be a helper for a first year degree level maths for science course - I frequently saw the penny drop and the grin of delight when they realised they finally got it. Often it was just a case of explaining things in different words and it all suddenly makes sense. DH also used to teach the course and said he had great success in teaching fractions in terms of sharing out mars bars .

Yes, most definitely. In fact the wonderful thing about maths is that you keep on having Eureka moments.
I think the problem with maths these days is that there has been too much interference into Primary School teaching and from what I understand even the basics are taught in a complicated way now.( hence the problem of confidence among teachers throckenholt)
I also think that there is a general 'I'm hopeless at maths' feeling which you just don't get with other subjects.

Thanks Throckenholt - although I was a bit at the idea of first year undergraduates needing assistance to learn fractions.

I also think there is a prevalent attitude that maths is difficult and an expectation that you won't be able to do it. Teaching it should all be about boosting confidence and showing them that they CAN do it. I think too many teachers have the nagging feeling at the back of their minds that they themselves "can't really do it" or "aren't good at maths".

Correct me if I am wrong - but I think most primary school teachers are not maths specialists - so will probably have come through school with the idea that maths is difficult. Even though they are now well versed in teaching the methods they teach, they are probably not relaxed with playing with numbers and finding different ways of explaining things to those that did not understand the first method.

Thanks Throckenholt - although I was a bit shock at the idea of first year undergraduates needing assistance to learn fractions.

me too - these were first year science undergrads - they must have done science a-levels though god knows how (at least they could not have done what I did at a-level). Many many of them struggled with the basics. And to combat it we went right back to basics - starting with adding, substracting, multiplying and dividing.

I think in maths there are a series of Eureka moments rather than one as there seems to be in literacy. You can wake up one morning and suddenly be able to cope with reading anything but that doesn't happen in maths in the same way

I totally agree that the way math is taught is confusing these days. DS1 showed me some technique for doing an addition that was fine and probably went some way to showing the processes but it couldn't realistically be used to any number over 100 as it would have been too long winded. I don't personally see the point of using any system that can't be used to add any numbers together. I think in the early years particularly you just have to 'know' it - it has to be repeated and repeated until it become second nature and long winded explanations don't help this.

Throckenholt - I think you may be correct. The teacher in overall charge of maths at ds's school has said that she has only just "got the hang" of the number line concept - not particularly encouraging.

Indignatio - the number line concept is confusing and I say that as someboby who isn't frightened of maths. If is also very difficult to unlearn the rational and seemingly straight forward way that we were taught as a children to learn the current fashion in maths teaching. I feel sorry for the teachers tbh.

that is what worries me about the new methods - it is probably being taught by people who don't really feel comfortable with it, and probably were not totally comfortable with maths anyway before that - so they are not likely to be flexible in their explanations and probably won't be brilliant at instilling confidence in the kids.

Leading to a whole 'nother generation kids who think maths is difficult and learn early to think they can't do it , and to hate it.

I read in Telegraph Education section a couple of months ago that new fangled methods were being scrapped. Let's hope that's true and we can get back to the old fashioned way which has worked for so many years.
Whoever thought of a method for teaching something as fundamental as maths that would be like double-dutch to parents obviously had too much time on their hands!

Throckenholt "me too - these were first year science undergrads - they must have done science a-levels though god knows how "

I have heard about this previously, I know of one unviersity which was considering making its science degrees 4 rather than 3 years, just so the first year could be spent getting the maths up to speed. - Don't know whether they did it or not though.

Niecie "You can wake up one morning and suddenly be able to cope with reading anything but that doesn't happen in maths in the same way"

I suppose the eureka moment I was thinking about is being able to set how the numbers relate to one another. Rather than "Yipee I can do fractions" or "Great I can differentiate" (the latter being something i could never get my head around)

see not set - sorry

sadly it was over 10 years ago that I was teaching the first year maths courses and I don't think it has improved much. There was (and still is) a core of people who were not capable of doing the more scientific parts of the course. So there are now almost two degrees on the course - one qualitative - more social vie of science, and the other the more numerical quantitative bits (that one they struggle to get enough people for, and struggle to persuade people that it is not too difficult for them).

I don't know but if there is my DD hasn't had it yet. But she is brilliant at reading. I must admit I never liked maths, but try hard to be positive for her sake as I don't want to put her off. I do struggle to help with her homework though - and she is only 6!! I am going to discuss this with her teacher at parents evening this week. Can anyone recommend any good web sites that explain how maths is taught these days? I don't know what I can reasonably expect of a 6 year old.

I can see patterns in numbers, for want of a better phrase, and also how they relate to each other but I don't recall it happening as a eureka moment. I definitely noticed it with DS1 learning to read. He improved so much in such a short space of time. I am still waiting for the same thing to happen in maths but at the moment he just can't see it. I don't know that it is as easy in maths as it is almost another language.

I think the complicated techniques don't help have a eureka moment in maths because everybody, teachers and children, are tied up in the technique. It is about knowing 2+2 or 12x8 for example, without having to think too much. Probably like you get reading when you have memorised enough words and sounds to be able to cope with any new word you come across and therefore be able to read fluently. Once you have that comfort with numbers then the more complex techniques surely become much easier.

just found this - looks like it might be useful.

Somegirls - here is one popsycal recommended a while back maths guide

Ds's school had an evening when they taught the parents how to assist the children - ie taught the parents the number lines etc

I am all for as many different ways of doing things as possible. What works for one child/parent may be different from what works for the next.

thanks for posting my previous link - you beat me to it