Argh, class from hell again - please forgive my rant!

[Hulababy]

Not really education, more a work rant...but I need to just get it out before I explode!

Day started fantastic. Has the Regional Director for the KS3 ICT coming in to shadow the LEA Advisor. School has no HoD for my subject (ICT) so Advisor comes in once a week to work with us. RD came in my first lesson - bottom set, very low abaility Y8 and it went great RD was very pleased and had no faults at all. Next two lessons went well too, but then.....

.... the Y9 class from hell.

I really thought we were having some head way with this lot but today was the worst lesson in my entire teaching career, and I feel c**p. They were awful. The class is 30 kids, mixed ability (but the top and bottom kids in year are creamed off). Have tiny ICT room. 20 PCs crammed together. Not enough room really for 30 to cram in but hey ho. 6 have EBD issues, but I'd say at least that amount again have behavioural problems in school.

Came into class high - refused to settle to the activity awaiting them. One lad came in and first thing he did was to pull someone';s chair over and knock the other lad to floor. Dealt with that...

...but it just continued No learning took place for the majority. My computers were pulled apart, wires ripped out back, mouses dismantled. Called for Active Patrol but no one around to answer. Gave out some detentions.concern forms to worst offenders, who couldn't have cared less anyway.

I've now spoken to Deputy Head and asked for a non ICT room for a while. No way are they going back in my room and ruining my equipment. Also spoken to LEA Advisor (who has seen them first hand and he agrees with me, and is coming up with some alternative ICT work that doesn't use computers whilst we get the discipline and behaviour sorted.

I have complained every week about these and spend so much time planning and preparing for the lesson. If I do anything that remotely challenges them or makes them think they can't cope and go mad. But management don't appear to be doing anything. The people I chat to in the staff room are all complaining about this year group. The new Head of Y9 doesn't appear to have improved them at all.

Maybe I am a c**p teacher; at times I feel like it. Hand up though, I don't know what to do next with these kids They make me so and so all at once.

But all my inspections and onservations are always good, so why is this going so bad????

Anyway, sorry for ranting and going on. I needed to ge it all out, even if no one listens IYSWIM. Therapy and all that. Please feel free to ignore though as I know I have waffled tons.

I feel very, very sorry for the feral kids that I teach. I don't for one minute think that their case is inescapable. But they will escape from their situation by having their behaviour challenged. I treat the kids I work with in a professional manner. However I do not belive in automatic 'respect'. We earn respect and I am fed up of kids that think they deserve respect when they act in dreadful ways.

Their behaviour is feral, they cannot behave in any normal manner with teachers or each other. Dancing round the issue will not change it for them or improve their lot in life. They need to be taught how to behave.

These are not vulnerable toddlers but angry and violent 16 year olds who will soon go out into the wide world and they will no longer be able to tell people to fuck off, or lash out at them with impunity. These children are deeply damaged by their parents and I will do my very best for them. But please don't think for one minute that they behave the way they do because I give an accurate description of their pattern of behaviour.

I have toi agree with hmb. I'm afraid some of the pupils I encounter do not behave in any way that could ever be classed as acceptable in society. They have no manners. They no respect. I don't blame them as such though - it has to come from other influences. A child is not born that way I am sure. Bu, I do not, and never have, label children as they enter my room, and, I hope, I never let the way the children behave or act affect the quality of what I do. It does however affect the learning that can take place in the class room. There is only so much I, or a teacher, can do.. I can plan and prepare, and attempt all sorts of things, as much/many times as I like. But unless the majority of the kids in a class want to work and learn, then no progress will be made at all.

Interetsingly I hae been teaching at the prison today. These are blokes who for the large majoirt gained no qualifications at school. Many left very early - one told me he hasn't been in education properly from the age of EIGHT! These blokes are now learning the hard way. They are in education in prison as a way of changing their lives. Their literacy amd nueracy isn't great but it is improving, and they now see the benefits of education. They generally admit that at age 13 or whatever they didn't and that they must have made their own teacher's life hell. They regret it now (on the whole, not all obviously). I do sometimes wish I could take some of that Y9 class with me to the prison and see how these men I teach view education differently now. Maybe they'd talk the kids "language" a bit.

Scummymummy - I have only labelled properly one child I have taught. He IS effectively feral. He has no respect and manners at all. He felt, and still does, that it is acceptable to swear and verbally abuse teachers (including management) and to even ohyisccally abuse staff. He threw a chair at me when 7 months pg, he broke two glassw indows on his way out. This is not the only time he has done this. I don't know the answer with kids like this. But please remember that the children we are talking about her are not babies and toddlers, or even little ones. They are big strapping kids on the whole, on the verge of adulthood.

If a 15 or 16 year old abused me in the street there'd be much more sympathy/empathy and uproar even. If it is in a classroom it is somehow deemed more acceptable

And not only are we expected to cope with this, we are also expected to 'respect' the very kids who abuse us? Please! Lets have a reality check.

Have to agree with Hulababy.

Kids are very aware of their rights and not their responsibilities.

It is hard to respect a 16 year old who is bigger than you swear etc at you.

I'm not dancing round the issue on purpose, hmb, just trying to sort out my thoughts on this one. Basically I find the words "feral" and "animal" offensive and upetting when applied to young people/children but I think you are right to challenge their behaviour if and when that is feral (or even if it is just mildly unruly!). For me there really is a difference between "I teach feral kids" and "their behaviour is feral" both of which you have said at different points. The first is not saying "I don't respect you", IMO. It's saying "I don't think you are a human being". Anyway, if they are in essence feral then surely there's no point in challenging their behaviour?

I completely agree with you - the abuse and assaults that happen in the classroom wouldn't be accepted anywhere else. There was a stabbing in my son's school last week (it was reported in the National Press). It was passed off as a 'prank that went wrong' and the perpetrator was only arrested on the absolute insistance of the victim's parents

Sorry, didn't see your posts before posting last message, hula and hercules. Need to do boystuff now but will try to come back to this later.

We would all be feral if no-one had showed us how to behave. I am not damning these kids forever. However i will not respect them until their behaviour warrents it. I will always treat them in a professional manner, they have a 'right' to that. My respect they earn.

They can start by realising that they can't tell me to fuck off and get away with it. Not too much to ask.

I was talking to a LSW in a different school. She told me that they have had to start classes at luch time to teach 11 year olds how to eat with a knife and fork. These arte not children with SN, just kids who's parents don't give a shit.

And sadly all you say is so true hmb

I didn't mean to start this diversion of hulababy's thread with a comment about children who cannot behave, who wreck expensive computer equipment purchased for the whole school, who are wrecking other childrens opportunities to learn, who make an excellent teacher question her very abilities to teach, the type of child who make grown people cry and leave the profession in hordes (and leaves a massive shortage and such a lack of teachers that some core subjects are in crisis).
The type of child who physically threaten and abuse adults paid to teach them and the list goes on.
When I started teaching I had rose coloured glasses on-soon changed when a class of 14 year olds reduced me nearly to tears on my fifth day- nothing to do with my ability just their inability to behave.
The time (at 6 mths pg)I had a table pushed at me by a 16 year old who was in the top set and whose mother despaired of him but who felt she could do nothing- he'd seen others getting away with similar things and believed that he would too so had got progressively worse over the years...
The time I was called a fucking hoare by a 12 year old for refusing to let him use a pc because he'd been caught looking at porn the previous day...
and on and on- perhaps they shouldn't be referred to as animals- personally I feel it's an insult to band them with decent kids but that's my opinion.
If I've offended you then I apologise as that was not what was intended

Forgot to add that I DO agree with everything hula and hmb are saying

Yes, sorry for diversion, hula. I'll shut up now.

No worries, either of you. It's interesting for me to get different perspectives on it (and to see I am not alone in having such classes) so it'as all good to read.

I think these little animals and I have no qualms about calling them little animals have grown up with society giving them every chance to be educated and resposible members of society - they don't and then well meaning people come along and effectively give them chances to opt of out being responsible civalised members of society - no matter what challenging background they come from to me there is still a set of rules and laws that they must follow and I feel namby pambying around is only giving them fuel to their fire to misbehave.

hmb, sorry to hijack the thread a bit. You say that your HoDs are really supportive over your difficult classes. As you know I am a HoD, and I think that I am rubbish at supporting my colleagues with difficult classes. Can you tell me what it is they do which is so supportive - I want to help my colleagues, but I feel I often let them down.

Incidentally, I agree with what the teachers here are saying. I have met classes like these and I empathise completely. The "animal/feral" debate is interesting. I would use language like this if I was chatting in a non-professional context too. But I had an interesting meeting just now. A colleague and I were exploring his relationship with a class. After he'd finished explaining to me what was going on I asked if I could summarise what he'd just said. He was shocked and angry at what I repeated to him and said that I had completely misinterpreted him and went on to explain himself better. He does care for his classes and is a good teacher who was fed up with a difficult year 9 (shock!) class. I pointed out that if I had heard dispair and disrespect from him, even though that is the last thing he intended to communicate, that maybe that's what the kids were hearing too. I'm waffling on, I'm sorry, but this is so close to what you were discussing. I think that sometimes we unwittingly do communicate things to each other and our students which we really don't believe, but which, as scummy says, are not fair. My colleague is going to video him teaching that class so that we can see if my suggestion is true. I will keep you posted!

Good luck fisil. Hope the videoing goes well.

I guess in that sense I am lucky, as I do have an LEA Advisor in and out, observing and team teaching on Tuesdays - the day I have my horrid Y9 class. So, I can get instant feedback. Likewise I can chat to him about it all striaght after too.

Oh, what is supportive? Good question!

First is that they are also friends of mine, which can either be the best thing or the worst (for example I would imagine that if they had to tell me I was doing something wrong it could be a problem). It terms of supporting me when I have difficult kids the first line of support is often the most simple, and very often the most effective. We have a chat over a cup of coffee! As you know kids will often act up in one lesson and behave in another, we share experiences and see if there is a 'flash point' that can be avoided. Often the act of sharing a coffee can be enough, you get the feeling that they value you and have set asside time for your (sounds a bit daft when you put it down on paper).

The whole department is set up along very open lines and people will feel that it is quite natural to share hints and tips. Often we just end up saying, well I'm stumped too! And that can also help in an odd way.

We have an internal system where the HOD will interview a cild who gets 3 behaviour slips from the department. This often lets the child realise that these things are taken seriously and that the 'big picture' is being watched. While trying to ease the situation the HOD makes it clear to the child that the Teacher is being supported by the HOD.

When children persisit in misbehaving the department also runs an 'internal exclusion' policy. Children will be placed with another class (most often sixth form) with work to do. THis is very helpful, possibly the most helpful thing the department can do in some situations. We all do this for each other, setting up the placement in advance if we feel it is needed. This is also done as an emergency if a child will not behave but their behaviour does not warrant HOD imput. We are in the science depatment and this is often driven by H & S issues. We are also open as a department to moving children between classes if it will help with behaviour issues. We all know that children can act up in some peer groups and not in others. It is common to get persistant truble makes 'promoted' to top sets, which often has a magical effect on their behaviour.

I think over all it is the open and friendly 'feel' to the departmant that is the greatest support and the 100% certenty that children wil very challenging behaviour will be coped with somehow!

Not sure if this is any help at all or just a load of waffle. This is also mirrored by the ethos outside the department as well. the kids know the boundaries and what happens if they break them, for example use of the F word gets you 3 days exclusion.

The F word gets 3 days exclusion!? Wow!!! That is fantastic hmb. The pupil who said it to me got half a day in the interna; exclusion - and this was after the second time. The first time he just got warned, despite being persitant poor behaviour throughout the school. The child who threw the chair at me and smashed the windows only got two days oput of school.

Interesting post, fisil- that sounds like a good practical example of what I meant but obviously didn't say very well. Best of luck with the videoing.

Sounds like you have some good supportive systems in place at your school, hmb.

It is excellent, and not just for us but also (and most importantly) for the kids as well. There is a very open attitude. Kids are OK about reporting incidents, we use a lot of mentoring etc It is very strict, with a very formal uniform policy, but also very secure and supportive. We got an award last year for being one of the most imporoved schools (as opposed to an approved school!) in the UK. It is your 'bog standard' comp, working class background, 70% of the kids are great, proud if yours turned out as well types, 5% 'feral', 15% disafected, 10% fellow travellers.

Your school sounds great in the support that you have- we've got 2 new deputies this year and last and things seem to be looking up at our place as well. Little things like a 'late to school' book and then detention for 3 lates- in the past it's been avoided because of the number of kids who come to school by bus but now someone has realised! that it's the kids who walk to school who are late...
anyway they seem to be picking up the little things which I believe to be important in instilling pride in our school, the kids and making us a 'community' again

Gosh - naive thing that I am - I never realised schools were like this . I feel very sorry Hula (and the other teaching staff) if this is the sort of shit you have to put up with.

hmb, thank you, that was brilliant and detailed. Thank you for taking the time to write that. Sometimes I lose sight of the importance of the relationship with colleagues (especially when I have tended to focus on growing major organs inside my tummy this term instead of chatting to colleagues!). I love the sound of the systems you have at your school too - I will print out what you've written and think about how i can apply them in my department (especially the one about the "interview" - I do that, but had never thought of making it formal). Our kids love structure as much as us, so it sounds worth it. The only difference is that you clearly feel you can help the students to settle down - one colleague who really frustrates me just wants me to remove anything difficult from his life! (or so it seems - maybe I need to think about how he feels more!)