Studying medicine

[hazelliya]

What grades my dd needs on GCSE to get into medicine school? With grades 6 on three science subject is medicine achievable. I really need help! Thank you

GCSEs won't necessarily be the issue if she selects her unis very very carefully. However.... grade 6 science GCSEs very rarely translate into A+ at A level.

Thank you Titchy. Unfortunately my dd dreaming to go to Russell Group universities. Do you think she can achieve her dream with these grades?

Manage her expectations. What A levels is she doing? She needs A and A star grades. Her tutors should give her an indication soon enough of the level she is working at.

@hazelliya Unless she is a late developer and miraculously does amazingly at A Levels or decides to try as a mature student then no sorry.
Sorry but will find medical school miserable if she isn't academic enough. Please manage her expectations. She may end up getting stuck with a string of awful science a levels that leave her with no options. Is she good at something else?

If it's her dream please support her in any way you can. You do not need to be highly academic to get into or through medical school. I speak as a doctor, a Medical School University tutor and admissions tutor. BUT you do need drive, common sense, perseverance and a LOVE for the subject.
Speak to her about if she really wants to go through all the hard work and sacrifice. If she does you both have to pull out all the stops. Now.
Please excuse typos/ grammar errors just been discharged from hospital with a Quinsy- v apt!

@Roastbeefandyorkshires

If it's her dream please support her in any way you can. You do not need to be highly academic to get into or through medical school. I speak as a doctor, a Medical School University tutor and admissions tutor. BUT you do need drive, common sense, perseverance and a LOVE for the subject. Speak to her about if she really wants to go through all the hard work and sacrifice. If she does you both have to pull out all the stops. Now. Please excuse typos/ grammar errors just been discharged from hospital with a Quinsy- v apt!

Would you admit an 18 year old with all the drive in the world, and 3 x C grade A levels?

Clearly that's not what I'm saying. But if she has what it takes it's not too late.
Mum can be supportive or not her choice. Dashing a young persons dream is a pretty negative approach in my opinion.

@Roastbeefandyorkshires

Clearly that's not what I'm saying. But if she has what it takes it's not too late. Mum can be supportive or not her choice. Dashing a young persons dream is a pretty negative approach in my opinion.

Which is why I said manage expectations. If the relatively poor GCSEs were due to sink-school type teaching, trauma throughout year 11 and not genuinely reflective of her academic ability then it would be poor form not to support.

But if the results were a realistic indication of her academic ability then her likely A level grades will be Cs (and presumably also low UCAT/BMAT) and it would be neglectful not to recognise that and encourage her to look at other options. Of which there are plenty.

It can be a long road for some students. Retakes, entering as mature student etc. If it's her dream anything is possible I have seen it many times. Yes, have an honest discussion with her and support her but allow her to ultimately decide Her path for herself. She will thank you for it.

Also a doctor and medical school lecturer and tutor. We need more diversity in medicine. The reason the expected grades are high Is not because medical school is hard- its because they have to select and that’s the easiest way to do it.it’s not really hard stuff to understand. It’s a lot of work but not intellectually difficult. Unfortunately, she will need to be aiming for A stars so as unfair as it is she may be better looking at an allied job or postgraduate entry. Has she considered any other allied professions?

Dreaming isn’t the answer. Hard work, determination, tenacity, resilience and a decent amount of career related work experience is what works better.
Does she do voluntarily work? Has she sorted any work experience?
How is she looking to move her mediocre grades to higher grades?
What is it that appeals?

There are other routes into medicine. For example, The University of Warwick offers a four year graduate medicine course. So, you go and do a non medicine degree and then do another four years. The first degree doesn’t need to be at Warwick.

There are lots of science degrees that don’t need three A* for entry. Biology, biochemistry, biomedical sciences, microbiology, clinical psychology etc. A good degree from a good university and a proven passion (and work experience) will get you onto one of these courses.

I agree that if it’s your child’s dream then you should support them BUT there needs to be an element of reality. You need to be the voice of reason but encourage them to give it their best. You don’t get anything if you don’t try.

@Zodlebud

There are other routes into medicine. For example, The University of Warwick offers a four year graduate medicine course. So, you go and do a non medicine degree and then do another four years. The first degree doesn’t need to be at Warwick.

There are lots of science degrees that don’t need three A* for entry. Biology, biochemistry, biomedical sciences, microbiology, clinical psychology etc. A good degree from a good university and a proven passion (and work experience) will get you onto one of these courses.

I agree that if it’s your child’s dream then you should support them BUT there needs to be an element of reality. You need to be the voice of reason but encourage them to give it their best. You don’t get anything if you don’t try.

Very few go via postgraduate courses. It’s possible but you still need high achievement and determination. Lots of graduates on undergraduate medicine degrees. It’s a long haul.

More important is to consider why it’s her dream. To work out whether it’s the science (an undergraduate biochemistry degree for someone who didn’t like science and who didn’t get on to graduate medicine could be a significant lifetime regret). There are other careers which might meet her criteria and where she might be happier.

I think it's unlikely she'd be going to a Russel group uni for medicine with those grades. It's just so competitive and a student who didn't manage to get 8s at GCSE is unlikely to make it through the other hurdles. If something prevented her getting the grades at GCSE she really should have that's different.

While I agree medical school doesn't require genius level intelligence it is more difficult than GCSEs so a student who didn't manage at least a 7 at GCSE probably wouldn't manage to pass med school. (Unless something changed for example if they were poorly taught at school or hadn't really started working hard or had some other unresolved issue).

I would advise her to really go for her Alevels and see what she can do but also look at alternative courses. Is she interested in nusring? Midwifery?

Thank you for all if your ideas. Dd has predicted all 8's and 9's for her GCSE's but after the lockdown and Covid, dd has given grades 6's and 7 's.
Dd works hard, genuinely passionate on medicine. Applied for volunteer work at hospital had the id but lockdown happened, dd still waiting for start date for the volunteering.
Considering to check chemists and gp for volunteering but not quite sure whether they accept volunteers or not.
I really dont want dd to lose enthusiasm towards the a levels dd's taken.
Dd will be the first one in our family who hopefully will go to uni.

The fact that she was predicted all 8s and 9s is completely different. That suggests she absolutely is capable of reaching the standard for medical school. I would advise her to make sure she absolutely nails her Alevels then applies for medicine but also a biomedical degree with a view to doing graduate medicine afterwards.

@BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

The fact that she was predicted all 8s and 9s is completely different. That suggests she absolutely is capable of reaching the standard for medical school. I would advise her to make sure she absolutely nails her Alevels then applies for medicine but also a biomedical degree with a view to doing graduate medicine afterwards.

Possibly. If she was predicted 8s and 9s why were her CAGs 6s and 7s?

My initial advice still stands regardless - see how she is doing with her A levels and assess from there. And do manage expectation - a lot of med schools do use GCSE grades as a decider. She can't put 5 medicine courses down anyway so needs a sensible alternative.

What A levels is she doing?

It's obviously too late now, but if she genuinely was an 8/9 grade student she should have gone for October resits if medicine was the aim.

@CherryPavlova - graduate medicine courses now account for 10% of all students studying to be doctors so not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I know nothing about this company, they do have a useful summary of which universities offer these courses, number of places and entry requirements. It is less competitive for entry too (although the stats say that it is still hard to get a place).

I did a Natural Sciences degree at Cambridge and then went into a different profession. They get in touch with me even today about applying for the course. There’s a lot to be said for life experience and people skills.

Sorry, here’s the link

www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/graduate-entry-medicine/

I’m not sniffing at them - all credit to those who get there by an even longer route. Just think it’s not an easy or automatic path and academic achievement is still essential.

Entry requirements are usually minimum requirement and not necessarily indicative of the qualifications of those who gain a place. If it’s something people are prepared to go for, then good luck but I think to give the idea it’s an easier entry route isn’t necessarily accurate.

I wasn’t implying it was an easier route. Just that there is an alternative and popular route to medicine than starting at age 18. The OPs daughter may well smash her A levels and it not be a problem at all (I doubt universities will place half as much emphasis on GCSEs gained this year due to the whole fiasco.). But even if she gains three A * and has great work experience and doesn’t get a place then there is another route.

I actually “specialised” in microbiology in my final year. So much can be learned from other courses that it shouldn’t be seen as a waste or a long winded way of going about it. It shows a huge commitment to studying medicine and a determination to get there.

I am just pointing out that the door is not closed. It’s still open, it might just lead down a slightly different path to the one envisioned.

Graduate entry medicine is even more competitive than undergraduate medicine.

Your daughter will need at least AAA at A level including chemistry and usually biology, plus another subject. She will also need a good UCAT score.

I would also look at the entry requirements of each medical school as they mark applicants in different ways for interview invitations. Some want high GCSE grades, some put more weighting on the personal statement, some want very high UCAT scores, and some use BMAT instead of UCAT. Most use a mixture of GCSE grades, UCAT and personal statements. Your DD will also need AAA predictions at A level.

They all want some evidence of commitment to studying medicine - usually some kind of volunteering or work experience, which is difficult at the moment.

If the GCSEs were a blip and she gets As at A level then they will trump the GCSEs. The teacher reference can make clear that the A level grades are more reflective then with a decent score on the BMAT or UKCAT I’d say she has a decent shot if she can do well at interview too. However, if the 6s were accurate, then As at A level are likely to be difficult to achieve. Statistically, very few students with below 7/A at GCSE go on to produce A/A* at A level. But that’s very few, not none, so it is possible with a decent back up plan.

When it comes to Medicine, which university is not actually particularly relevant, as the courses are all regulated (and you do know that the Russell Group was set up as a lobby group, named after the London Hotel where its representatives held their meetings?). If she is only interested in attending a Russell Group university to study Medicine, then firstly, she is restricting her options and secondly, does she actually want to be a doctor and to practise medicine, I.e. provide a vital service for other people who have very specific needs for professional assistance, or is she more interested in prestige...?
If the RG thing is the most important to her, then there are lots of other degrees available, which are easier to get into than Medicine and will give one the RG badge at the end.

Or is the school feeding them the line RG good, nowhere else worth bothering with, with no reference to individual courses?

If she gets herself over to The Student Room, there is a whole megathread set up to give advice on which medical schools it would be strategically best to apply to, given the aspiring applicant's specific set of achieved and predicted grades etc.
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6679038
Unfortunately, some medical schools do 'score' GCSEs as well as A levels and the UCAT / BMAT score, so even multiple A*s at A level don't necessarily guarantee a high ranking, so it is worth looking very carefully at each one's methods and for that purpose, ignoring completely the 'group' that the medical school's university is part of.