School threatening to ban DS from computers because he has been fiddling

[alison222]

Ds has Aspergers. Literally just received the diagnosis. He LOVES computers. they are his big thing at the moment.

He has been fiddling with the set up of the class computer - duplicated all the desck top items, resized the writing and screen etc.

He had also managed to rename some of the teachers documents so she can't find them.

NOw I am annoyed with hem- furious in fact - don't get me wrong as we have had the same issues with our home computer.

BUT surely they can't threaten this?
Actually I know they can't and I am more concerned about them making a threat they can't carry out and also that they have such lax security systems on their computers.

Where do I best go from here without making a huge issue of it?

In theory it would be possible to use regedit, to stop access to the control panel, but it is very dangerous. If you make one little mistake then you would be forced to completely re install your operating system. Its definately an option I would advise against.

I have seen this software for sale on the internet and it has a 30 day free trial. It might make your XP home more secure.

www.folder-guard.com/control-panel.htm

I have no personal experience of this software.

Speaking as someone who has done security for HM government the school has been flagrantly incompetent.

Windows security is not perfect, but no teenager should be able to do this stuff. If he can do it, so can others.

Also, I'd love to see them prove he did it. I know top grade experts in forensics, and they would struggle, let alone the witless incompetent who set up this network.

It is the work of a few minutes to make a Windows network proof against all by the very smartest and obsessed kids.
Indeed with modern versions of Windows (XP or greater), the default security that a server sets up would make it quite difficult to go into other people's files.
Unless they have been dumb enough to do the computer equivalent of leaving them in the middle of the playground.

If the cretin who set up this system could read or knew someone who can read is quite easy to set it up so that kids are heavily sandboxed so that control panel and lots of other goodies are very hard to change.
This is standard for Windows. If you use a PC in a mid or large firm, odds are that you can't change much either. It is the way you set up PCs if you are competent.

There's stuff you haven't been told either.
This network has no viable security on it.

Given it has hundreds of kids on it, we can be quite certain, that there is far worse than a few re-named documents.

I would bet money there is both porn and pirated software.

DC. this boy is 6, so I don';t think that pirated software and porn will be much of an issue.

Granted the school should look to its computer security and SOPs regarding usage and supervision, but this is an infants school that we ae talking about, not a secondary school. They probably thought that they didn't need that level of security. They were wrong, but I don't suppose that many Infants schools have 'Industry' levels of security.

I would ask questions about whether the school has been giving your child enough sufficiently challenging work to do at the computer. There is a lot of non-religious truth to "The devil makes work for idle hands to do". If the children are just sitting there after finishing their work, and are not given an opportunity to occupy their time sensibly, then icons will be re-sized. Actually, the same applies to adults. A company in the US had many hours wasted over an employee changing the message that appeared on computer screens in the morning from "Happiness is a Sunny Day" to "Happiness is a Good Fuck".

While I agree with most of what others have said about everyone needing to take responsibility for their actions, and I certainly wouldn't accept boredom as an excuse for bopping someone on the head, schools need to be realistic about what will happen if they leave pupils to drift.

MB, My DC is also 6, so I have a good model of what an extremely bright 6yo is capable of when given tuition by an expert.
DS hasn't tried to get porn, but at a junior school, some others will have. They may use school kit to swap "interesting" stuff.

My point about "industry security" is that it is mostly not there for security. The biggest threat to the integrity of most systems, isn't hackers, but people who are trying too hard to do their jobs. They genuinely think they are doing the right thing, but screw up the computer in the process. People make errors like cutting and pasting a file, rather than copying it, forget where they left files, and set the resolution of the computer to a level that the screen can't handle, leaving it unusable.
Not evil people, just hard working incompetents.

I am not convinced that we have the whole truth here.

There is evidence of a kid who pokes his fingers into holes he shouldn't. I wonder if the school is blaming him for things that have happened because he is an easy target.

Certainly the kid should be prevented from doing this more, and that should not be restricted to incompetent staff brushing over their mistakes by taking it out on the kid.

None of this is rocket science, and the skills for this are so common that all but the smallest schools will have parents who can do this.

Hallgerda has a very valid point. There are some deeply cool and intellectually stretching things a kid can do with a computer that aren't destructive at all.
For instance there is \link{http://scratch.mit.edu/} Scratch

A simple programming environment that DC at 6 loves to bits. Teaches elementary programming like variables, control flow and even object orientation in an easy to use environment that makes cool noises and graphical actions.

I'm not totaly convinced that most 6 year olds have this level of compitence and 'drive'. I think that in part this may be because of his having Aspergers and computers being his particular interest atm.

It may not, of course.

The school does need to look to its protocals, they have made assumptions that are obviously not correct. However I don't feel that the school had be unusual in making these assumptions.

For alison's ds, I think this needs to be written into the first IEP. He needs a target of 'leraning to use the computers correctly' and the staff need to up the level of monitoring that they give him.

Even with all of this in place, children who are higly adept with ICT do get rounds the systems. And I have seen this several times with children with ASD. In some of these cases we have had to remove internet access from these kids, and limit them to stand alone computers. Though this is in secondary school.

Unless you have worked in a primary school then I think its unfair to critise primary school teachers. I work as an ICT technician 4 hours a week, our system is fairly insecure, but its the way the deputy head wants it. He decides where the balance is between the system being usable and the system being secure.

His arguement is that if the system was too secure then teachers would not be able to do simple maintance tasks when I not there.
As an ICT technician I follow the wishes of my boss and do as I am told, even if I don't agree with him. If that makes me a cretin, then I am a cretin.

Prehaps the ICT technician at this school was just doing as he was told by the deputy head and is as much a cretin as I am.

I have been to the meeting at the school this morning whenre the incident was discussed and and a preliminary IEP drawn up. I feel it is seriously lacking in some areas but we will address those again shortly.

Anyway it appears that the teacher had logged on as herself earlier and had not logged out and re-logged on using the classroom settings.

it does appear that he can change desktop settings etc anyway and as other children's work is visible he could potentially still rename other peoples work which is unsatisfactory IMO.

OH and I do beleive my DS needs to learn not to do these things.

Thank you for the advice of others for stratching Ds knowledge of other things on the computer. I will look at the links when I get a sec.

Actually I do think it fair. The same way that as a former chemist I'd be critical of a school that left acids where kids could grab them.

You don't make a system more usable by making it insecure. Accidental things by kids or adults will cause hassles. I've mostly worked with responsible office workers, but they wreak occasional havoc accidentally.

I accept that the person doing this was following orders, and to be sure there is blame to be shared, but as someone who frequently has come under that sort of pressure from senior execs, my job is to stop them from screwing things up, just in a more oblique way.

Why are teachers files in public areas ? That's not "usability" that's incompetence.

Let's not get too techie here, let's just see these files as pieces of paper.

If a teacher left sensitive reports about kids in the middle of the playground, she'd would rightly be thought at least a bit daft.
But we all have left things down in the wrong place.

If she then discovered the kids reading them, but did nothing except occasionally shouting at them, then I think we'd really begin to question her judgement.

If weeks later, she was still "storing" her files in a way that not only allowed kids access to sensitive information, but also allowed them to change it, then I don't think anyone would see her as competent.

It is the work of a few minutes to simply create a type of user called "Teacher". All teachers can access everything. Not ideal, but easy.
You then create a group of users called kids. They can't access the control panel at all, and only files in their own private area.
You can also easily block them from installing any software.

That will keep out any 6 yo, and all but the most gifted 11 yos, without getting in the way of staff.

The typical ICT technician in a school is paid not much more than the mimimum wage. A lot of people get a job in a school because they have no IT experience or they want a job that fits around their own kids.

You have to ask yourself what sort of person is likely to want a job paying £6 an hour. A really talented and experienced IT person would probably prefer do contracts and support small businesses and get paid far more money. A school has to question what is someone's reasons for wanting to work in school.

As for asking the parents, it depends a lot what area you are are in. Parents with strong ICT skills are often busy people.
Also doing volentary work in a school has become harder because of CRB checking.

"Anyway it appears that the teacher had logged on as herself earlier and had not logged out and re-logged on using the classroom settings"

Well teachers are human, even with the most secure networks, muppets (ie. users) are often the weakest point.

Nah, still not convinced it's not a screw up.
Every PC that's come under my control for more than 10 years has been set to require a password if its left idle.
I just checked, and it is 6 mouse clicks to do that.
The cost of IT people is an issue, I accept that. But if I wasn't capable of doing a job properly, or hadn't the budget to hire someone, then I wouldn't be having a go at a 6yo because of it.

Maybe there are some issues around security here, but then again I think the main issue is that a child who is capable of knowlingly interfering with the computer set up in the classroom is clearly capable of also obeying instructions. Yes, I agree, computer files should be looked at in exactly the same way as paper documents. And if, as a teacher, I put some documents on my desk, NOT in full view of the children, and clearly in MY space, I would be very angry with a child who deliberately defaced/destroyed them. This is no different.

I still think that if my child had taken his teacher's files and his peer's work and damaged some and hidden the rest, I would be very unhappy if the school's response was "Well done ds, you're really good at hiding things - we must find you some other things to hide. Naughty Miss X - sit in the corner until you learn to mistrust your pupils so much you lock up every scrap of paper and peice of work so that they aren't a temptation to anyone" JMHO.

Does your child have Aspergers Sybdrome katelyle? Do you know what it is?

That should have said "syndrome". obviously

No he doesn't. Yes, I do know what it is. Yes 9(before anyone asks) I do have close personal experience. But if he did , I would expect some slack to be cut - but I would not expect an entirely different set of rules to be made for him. No, I am not a teacher, but I am surprised at the dismissive attitude some peopel seem to take to teachers.

"Nah, still not convinced it's not a screw up.

Every PC that's come under my control for more than 10 years has been set to require a password if its left idle. "

That wouldn't work in a school. There are often times when a teacher wants to leave their computer "idle" and would be most annoyed if a screen saver suddenly appeared after 5 minutes. For example if a teacher has their computer connected to an interactive whiteboard and displaying some information. The teacher could be wondering about the classroom and helping kids. It would be a real nuisance if the screensaver cut in.

In the past kids who were little sh@ts got punished. Parents accepted the schools authority and allowed schools to displine their kids. Nowadays kids are deemed untouchable and the blame is always put on the teacher.

Various labels like ADHD/ Oppositonal defiance disorder are used as an excuse for appauling mistreatment of teachers and wrecking the education of other kids. DominiConnor is lucky in that her children can avoid such kids because she sends them to private school.

Parents seem to think they know all about education just because they have been to school. The teachers I work with are an extremely talented bunch of people. They work a sixty hour week and have to put up with abuse that no other professional would be expected to tolerate.

Working in a school is very different to an office. The ways that teachers use ICT is far more imaginative than the typical office enviromnent. I have been impressed with how intelligent some of the (state) school teachers are.

Contray to popular belief teachers usually know what they are talking about when it comes to ICT and education. What they find much harder is knowing how to make their ideas happen.

Thank you frances for a thoughtful post. This is going off at a slight tangent, but I agree that most people have no idea of the kind of abuse that teachers are expected to tolerate. As a state school teacher, I sat in yesterday on a lesson given by one of my colleagues who's in her first year of teaching. She's bright, talented, teaches clearly and in an interesting way, though obviously at 23 she doesn't yet have the benefit of experience. These were some of the comments made to the teacher during the lesson:
'Miss where did you get that skirt - charity shop?' 'God this lesson's crap' 'You touch my phone and I'll get my dad to sort you out'. Some of the comments made about the teacher to other pupils:'God she looks like a dog', 'Bet her boyfriend shags her with the light off'. During the lesson one boy also got up and interfered with the teacher's laptop which was connected to the whiteboard. Now, what struck me was that actually this behaviour wasn't particularly awful, neither is the school a particularly bad one, - this is pretty much par for the course. And before anyone asks, 'Why aren't these kids punished/stopped' etc - for starters, you'd barely get any teaching done if you responded to every incident, and secondly, the kids laugh at most of the punishments available to teachers these days. In many cases the parents collude with their children anyway - if they don't agree to an after school detention then we can't give it. I agree with frances that if most professionals had to put up with a fraction of this kind of treatment there would be uproar.

Fair point about teachers needing to leave their PCs, and dealing with that is far beyond what I'd expect from a 6ph tech, unless of course she had worked for me, in which case I'd have explained how you deal with that in a very low tech way.
You give people more than one ID.
You have a "class supervisor" ID. This person can do tactical stuff, but not alter settings or gain access to staff files.
Given that most teaching staff have about the same IT knowledge as the average office worker, I wouldn't give them access to system settings for the same reason, it's just too easy to screw stuff up accidentally.

Staff each have their own IDs which they can use to access private files.

DominiConnor,

Many of our machines run windows 98! (We have two standalone machines that run windows 3.1, but arent connected to the network) To put it mildy windows 98 isn't the most secure operating system known to man. Upgrading is not an option because of lack of money. Our network is held together by a shoe string!

My boss has enterprise admin rights over the network. He decides which options of group policy are turned on. He has a degree in ICT and is deputy head.

ebenezer,

What you described was truely awful.I hope that the young teacher carries on teaching after her NQT year. I feel desperately sorry for her that she has to put up with such nasty kids.

"You have a "class supervisor" ID. This person can do tactical stuff, but not alter settings or gain access to staff files. "

I don't think the teachers at my school would like two usernames. They would get mixed up. Its bad enough getting some teachers remember one password and username.

Teachers often prepare interactive whiteboard presentations or use resources on the server. They need access to their own files. They also like to save work to their own directory in the middle of lessons.

You could set up a shared directory where one ID had read only rights and the other ID had read/ modify rights, but it would confuse the socks off some teachers. A system has to be maintainable and workable.

What we need is for schools to be allowed to punish really awful children. Headteachers need to right to exclude distruptive brats without having their decisions overturned by appeal panels.

frances-this thread is about a 6 year old with Aspergers! Are you really saying he should be excluded for his "crime"?

We have a child at our school who has done this, he managed to do a lot of damage to not only the school system but the council's server. He was banned quite rightly IMO as he can and has bought down whole computer systems. He is not diagnosed with aspergers but is obsessive with computers and describes it as an addiction.