please help - ft working parents blackmailed into accepting 2 1/2 hr pre school nursery place...

[serenequeen]

hello mumnsetters

i'm really hoping the combined wisdom of mumsnet can help dh and i resolve something that has been a large source of stress for some months. in fact it is only the fact that we recently moved house and had another baby that has prevented us focusing on this at an earlier stage.

the issue is this. ds (3) has been offered pre school nursery places at the three primary schools for which he is down so far. since we both work ft (or near enough) and the pre school nursery places amount to only 2 1/2 hrs per day, we turned down places at two of the schools without a second thought, since attendance at the nursery for these schools does not impact whether or not the child will be offered a place at the primary school. however, the other school, which is rc and our top choice for ds , has made attendance at the pre-school nursery one of the criteria on which selection for entry to the school is made.

dh and i went to see the head about this, explaining that as we both work, it would be extremely difficult for us logistically to enable ds to attend the nursery . he as good as told us that if ds didn't take up the nursery place, he wouldn't get in to the primary school.

some points that are relevant to us in all this:

• ds currently attends a nursery that we are very happy with and wouldn't move him in the ideal world
• he has had to cope with a number of changes in a short space of time and i am uncomfortable with the thought of another one so soon
• ds still needs a nap in the pm which won't be possible with the pre school nursery hours
• if we take up the place, between sept and next jan (when i go back to work - on mat leave atm) our lives will be pretty miserable - either i will have to transform myself overnight into SAHM of lively 3 yr old who loves nursery or he will have to go to his existing nursery in the morning and then either dh or i will have to pick him up and drop him off at the pre school nursery in the pm. i will have to do the pick ups every day. it will be extremely restrictive and not the maternity leave i had planned.
• i had also planned to spend more time with ds by reducing his nursery days when i felt more on my feet with the new baby - which isn't quite yet!
• we could cope with the place come january by getting a nanny - but i hadn't budgeted on such a large expense next year. and anyway, we need to take up the place in sept, to the best of my knowledge they wouldn't allow him to start in jan.
• i had planned to go back to work 4 days per week in jan, but am now wondering what is the point, as my fridays will be v. restricted anyway - all for the sake of a 2 1/2 hr slot!
• may not be possible for me to work 4 days anyway, as we might need my ft salary to pay the nanny!

in short, we do not want to take this place in september, but if we don't he is likely not to get into the school - which is absolutely the one we want him to go to.

what do mumsnetters think we should do?

thanks in advance

thanks, crunchie. i agree with you that we have the challenge of school coming up anyway, but i suppose at least we would be well aware of that in advance and have time to plan.

this issue really took us by surprise. we have had so much else to think about recently, it didn't cross my mind for a moment that they were allowed to set this criterion.

i certainly don't want to start a sah v. working parent row - in fact if these sessions are just as hard work for sah parents then it makes me even crosser that the school can twist arms like this...

thanks, aloha.

OK serenequeen, here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

From what I know if faith schools, I believe they are allowed to set their own entrance criteria, so if attendance at their preschool is important then that's it. But check anyway.

I think you need to look to the future. If this is the school for your son, then let him join the school's nursery. I think you might be pleasantly surprised how much he enjoys the change. Both my sons had to leave lovely childminders and nurseries they were happy in betweeen the ages of 1 - 4 years (twice in each case). When we moveed house or our working patten changed we just had to make adaptions to their routine.

Of course they missed their old place and faces, but not half as much as I feared. They talked about the past from time to time, but not in a very sad or tearful way. As long as the new place or person was a good one and I showed I was positive about the move my sons were fine. I was I who was the more upset and nostalgic.Anyway, even if your son stays put at his old nursery, he will be leaving it soon, when he starts school.

I agree with others who suggest a childminder. It really is a common solution and IME a good one. And your son will start to mingle with children from the school( if the childminder looks after others) so when he joins he will have some older friends there.

You have to decide whether A) you want a childminder to pick up from one nursery and drop off at the other. Or B) you want a childminder to look after your son for the half day he is not at nursery. Sorry if I am repeating what has been said. Personally I'd go for B). I think going to 2 nurseries, plus having a childminder is a lot to cram into your son's day. The excitement of meeting all those different groups of children might just be too much.

I know you feel the 2.5 hours routine will tie you down while you are on maternity leave. A possible solution is to get a childminder to pick up your son from nursery for say, a couple of days a week. Even if she just has him for 2 or 3 hours, this will give you more flexibilty on those days and it will get your son used to a childminder before you go back to work and he has a childminder every day. Mind you, finding a childminder who can do part time now and full time later on might be difficult. But not impossible - worth checking out. TBH if it were me, knowing how easily my sons slip into different routines, I would consider getting one childminder part time while I was an SAHM and then if necessary changing to a five day a week childminder who could also take my baby when I go back to work.

A lot depends on the availability of childminders in your area. If they are really hard to come by, things will be harder. A nanny might be the better solution.

Now, childcare vouchers. In my part of SE London all parents of children aged 3 and over get 2.5 hours free nursery time per day. If this is the case where you live, this saving would offset some of the cost of a nanny if you have to employ one.

I can understand your annoyance at the 2.5 hour arrangement. It is the tip of the iceberg, I'm afraid. IME many playclub and group care arrangements times are not convenient for full time working parents. For the past two weeks my oldest son has been attending a cricket course. It starts at 9.30 and ends at 3.30. Most sports courses have these sort of hours or less. I am lucky. I work locally and can drop ds off (am) and take a late lunchhour and collect him (pm) before driving him round to a neighbour. If I didn't work locally and didn't have a family friendly working environment I'd be totally stuck!

cruchie - your post said it all to me - I stopped work last year for the same reason - I didn't want to face the logistics of 1 child in Reception and one in nursery and the holidays to sort out. Then there's after school football and swimming.
It's bad enough doing mum's taxi whilst I'm SAHM and juggling my 2 boys days - have seen what other parents do and glad I'm out of it - sometimes miss my job though.

thanks very much for these additional comments. i also realised last night that i hadn't responded to a number of people yesterday who took the trouble to post in detail. sorry, i was distracted by other comments. i will come back on some specifics later today i hope.

i have started another thread canvassing for views about moves from nursery to childminder and have also started looking into local childminders. dh is also on the case checking up with the lea and diocese - but i am not hopeful on this.

we are actually trying to solve two problems, which makes it more difficult to get our heads around it. we need a solution for the next few months while i am on mat leave but that is v. unlikely to be the same solution we will need for both ds and dd when i go back to work in jan. hey ho.

sorry if i upset sah parents yesterday - i only thought that if you didn't already have any childcare then these sessions might be useful rather than a burden, but i stand corrected.

serenequeen -
my dd starts at a preschool next week that is attatched to the primary school that we hope she will attend. It does say that attending the preschoon does not guarentee admission to the school.......but we feel it will help!

I will work on one of the days that she will attend a 2.5 hour session and have just found a childminder that will have her from 8 - 6. She'll do the school drop off and pick up. I do have to pay twice for this - her fees and the preschool fees. It's not an ideal situation, but we love the school and it's only one day. I'll also be on mat leave from the spring term, so no more childminder from then.
It's fraught with stress and 'what if I do this'.....isn't it? Hope the advice and suggestions you get here are of some help.

SQ, basically I see that you have two angles on this, although they inevitably cross over: the first is the logistics of it all and the second is the emotional side where your ds may have to change his circumstances. My only suggestion is that you work solely on the logistics initially so that, like Tigermoth says, if you put ds into the church preschool because you want him to attend the main school then you can work out the practicalities of how to achieve that. I think I'm saying that you have to take this one step at
a time (but only you can work out what the first step is!) Sorry not to be able to offer any real solutions; I know this is a perennial problem and particularly difficult for wams.

bumping this in hope of getting as many comments as possible before we leave for hols on monday! thanks

Why is reception called reception if you need nursery to prepare them for it? Will we soon have to have something to prepare them for nursery and then to prepare them for that?

Why should you run around like a headless chicken, or miss out on things with your other child just because a school says so? A school can be a "best" school in a number of ways, and realising that parents cannot bend themselves in all directions and being easy to work with should be one of those ways.

Hi sq

My older two are at a Catholic primary school in inner London. My understanding is that attending the nursery does not in principle guarantee a place in the Reception class -- and the school's admissions blurb includes a clause to this effect. I think this is because Reception is a statutory provision whereas nursery isn't.

Having said that, at our school being in the nursery does in practice mean you will be offered a place in Reception. Admissions are apparently now going to be handled by the LEA, but it appears this is just an extra layer of bureaucracy, and will rubber-stamp the school governors' decisions.

However, my ds's Reception class included several children whose parents had decided against putting them in the nursery aged 3+, for the opposite reasons to yours, namely that they were August babies and our school has full-time nursery places only, which they felt was inappropriate for their very young boys. I believe they applied directly for Reception places at the time others were applying for nursery and were told they could have places as they fulfilled the other criteria.

The school should have published admissions criteria in their prospectus, which should help you see where you fit into the great scheme of things. Is the head on the admissions committe? Is the parish priest ditto, and could you get him onside?

Just some thoughts. Ultimately you may need to read the writing on the wall, and do what it tells you...

Good luck!

another bump! thanks.

hello everyone

have been up to my eyeballs in packing today and therefore have not had time to respond to specific comments as i said i would.

apologies - i hate it when i do a long post to someone on something and they don't acknowledge it.

can i just say thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to respond here. dh and i are very grateful and we will definitely be examining options (e.g. going for a morning session, looking for a childminder) that we hadn't really considered in depth before.

i think in part our reluctance is an emotional response to yet another change in our lives right now. of course we are concerned with ds's reaction to it all, but we are also heartily sick of major change ourselves and are v. hesitant about changing something this crucial to our lives - for no certain future benefit.

thanks again everyone, these comments have been very useful

sq - can't offer any practical help, but ust wanted to reassure you that children can cope with this much change - dd has settled briliantly into a new nursery after the upheaval of a house move and a new baby. The first few weeks were a bit traumatic, but now she is very very happy.

DS2 is starting at the nursery attached to DS1s primary school in September. They were happy for him to go only 3 days a week with the other 2 days being his full days at another nursery.

Having a place at the nursery does not gurantee a place in reception though. this is a bog standard state school with no special selction criteria.

I believe that faith schools are allowed to set their own selection criteria (such as compulsory attendance at the church) so I guess they can put nursery attendance in as one. It doesn't mean that your child won't get in but if there are 30 places and 30 nursery attnedees apply, then you won't get a place. If only 25 apply, there are 5 spaces left and if you were to fulfil the remaining criteria better than anyone else on the list, you'd get in. I guess it works the same way as the sibling rule and would imagine their selection is

1. siblings,
2. nursery,
3. church attendance,
4. where you live or something like that.

As for the 2.5 hour sessions, DS2s 3 days at the school nursery will involve me being at the school at 9am, 11:30 and 3pm. I'm going to spend my whole day going to and from the damn place. I am a SAHM and simply don't see how someone can work with a child at school unless they have a childminder, nanny or a very flexible/cushy job!

Wonder if you can find someone to take your DS between nurseries. Which has probably been suggested already...

Hi SQ, hope the sun is shining on you right now and that a blue-sky solution is presenting itself .
We had a similar problem last year when we had to remove ds from his beloved, familiar day nursery just a few weeks after dd was born and send him to his new school's reception, because it only has one intake. I would really echo Batters and Tigermoth - children are very flexible and although ds still speaks affectionately about his nursery days he genuinely settled very quickly into reception. The staff at your pre-school will be used to taking on 3-4 year olds who have already been at another nursery/playgroup and will know how to handle them sensitively, I'm sure.
The argument "it's in the best interests of the children/pedagogy" will always be used by educators to chastise and unrepentently inconvenience parents working outside the home, I'm afraid. They have us over a barrel.
We have encountered a vague hint of this in the enormous amount of public praise lavished on ds this year at school "because he goes to Breakfast Club AND After-School Club". I am sure the teachers are trying to be kind, but there is a tinge of disapproval, I sense. Ironic as they are mostly mothers and fathers themselves.
You have my boundless sympathy on this one and I wish I could think of a magic solution. Childminders vary so much according to the local market - Tigermoth and MI, both living not far from me, have struck gold in the past - I've had no luck but it's definitely what I would be investigating in your shoes.

Hi there SQ hope you had a good hols. I think you need to work out whether you want (ft) daycare or (pt) education for your child, based on what's best for him and you, and factoring in convenience, finances etc. You know your child best and you know whether he is ready for pre-school - and I would be wary of any school (or govt for that matter) telling you that he is if you're not sure. All the mums I know who opted to retain daycare arrangements are happy, and if they weren't they'd move...the fact that it is a commercial operation works in your favour here. Having said that when I was in your situation I opted for the state pre-school with 'wraparound' childcare and I don't know anyone who has made the switch who isn't positive they did the best thing for their child. Can you talk to any freindly parents at the pre-school to get a vibe as to whether it is right for your son maybe?

we're back from our holidays now, feeling much more clear headed about this.

thanks to everyone for their responses on this thread. we've had a lot of food for thought and some helpful suggestions.

although my objections to moving ds at this stage still stand, i don't think we've got an option if we want him to go to this school. as people have said, he may take to the change very readily.

our plan is this:

• request a morning place to start in january
• if this fails request a pm place in january.
• if this is unsuccessful, request a morning place to start next week
• if all else fails we will start next week with the pm place as originally envisaged
• while i am on maternity leave, ds will attend the am (or pm) session at his current nursery 3 days/week - giving him some stability and continuity, maintaining the relationship with the nursery in the event it goes pear shaped at the preschool, and giving me a proper break while i am on maternity leave
• the other 2 days ds will stay with me at home apart from the preschool session, which will also ensure that i spend more time with him while i'm not working.
• dh and i will manage the logistics ourselves while i'm on mat leave (yet again we thank our stars for the flexibility of dh's job - the pay is pants though!)
• we will look for a wraparound solution (e.g. childminder, nanny) to start in january when i go back to work. although there could be advantages to starting him with a childminder now, i do not want to add yet another new thing to the equation.
• plus i will also need to consider childcare for dd then and would like to find a holistic solution for january rather than rushing into a cm arrangement now which might not be suitable once dd's needs come into the equation in when i go back to work.

thanks everyone

Well done SQ! Why didn't I think about / do this when I was in a similiar dilemma about That School Almost Next Door To The One You Are Talking About!
Hope you had a most fabulous holiday.

XXXXX

update - if anyone can bear it.

don't want to say too much, but we got further info from a trusted source that nursery attendance was far less of a big deal when it came to getting into the school than we were led to believe.

sooooo - we turned down the place and ds will continue at his existing nursery until he goes to school.

HOORAY HOORAY HOORAY HOORAY

we are very relieved this has all been quite stressful.

oh excellent, SQ. Hope you're getting the mat leave you wanted now that this is sorted.

So pleased to hear you have resolved the dilemma. I think I told you I do know two kids who are at that school and didn't go to the nursery - so that backs up whatever info you have been given. Glad to hear it is all sorted.