Engineering - Alevels or apprenticeship/BTec?

[Bestseller]

DS2 wants to be an engineer. A bit vague about what kind of engineer but maybe electronics or computing.

He seems to be on track to get GCSE 7+ plus for all the sciences, computing and maths. Some maths papers he's doing now he's scoring 90%+

However, he's going to struggle to get 4+ in English and History.

He's determined to leave school and do an apprenticeship. Is this the best route for him? I feel like he should be aiming for a good uni but understand the poor written skills will hold him back, both in the likely offers and the course itself.

I worry about the quality of apprenticeships on offer and also about specialising too soon.

What would your advice be?

Sorry, I've just realised the most obvious advice is to make sure he gets a pass in English and he's working hard with a tutor and going voluntarily to "English club" at school, so hopefully that will come good.

There are some great engineering apprenticeships leading to degrees.
Have a look at the world skills show at the nec in November - visit if you can, or look at the employers on the website.

I would suggest BTecs are fine but he will still need his English.

You need to understand that Engineer is a very broad term. The top qualification is Chartered Engineer and this is best acquired by doing an MEng degree. If you do BEng, then most grads go on to be Incorporated Engineers. Not the highest level. Everyone else is an engineering technician. The English is vital for all of them though. Get that and then re-evaluate.

Yes, he knows he needs to get the English.

So if he does the BTEC, he can still go to a good Uni later? School are telling me that the good Universities will usually take an Engineering BTEC but will want A Level maths alongside. i.e they think he should do the 2 Alevel equivalent with the them, plus maths, whereas if he goes to college or an Apprenticeship, he'll do the three A level equivalent BTEC.

It's very frustrating that all these experts "advising" DS are doing it with their own interests at heart. Obviously the colleges are recruiting do and not unbiased in their advice.

If your DS goes for an apprenticeship now (at 16) then the qualifications he gets will be linked to what the employer offers.

If he goes to college to do a BTEC then he should look at the qualifications needed for an engineering degree by some of the engineering universities to check if he would also need A level maths.

If he’s on target to get great grades in his GCSE maths and science, then taking A levels in those keeps most options open. He could then apply for a higher level apprenticeship at 18, or apply to uni for a whole range of courses.

It really depends on him. If he really wants to leave school would he consider moving to a different school to take A levels?

As an ex electronic engineer I went the apprentice route completing a general engineering qual (skills based welding, milling machine etc) then specialising in Electronics with the ONC, HNC and HND.

The company I did my training with also set on grads.....we did used to take the piss when they didn't know how to use a soldering iron.

My point is - if he likes the practical aspect then a good apprenticeship will fulfil this together with good qualifications as will the BTEC route if he can't find a good apprenticeship

My son did a level 3 higher diploma in engineering at college as A Levels did not appeal to him. Some of his diploma classmates went onto university but he preferred the practical aspects more than the academic (although he is more than capable). He is now well into a 4 year crane engineer apprenticeship and he loves it. I think if your son finds the academics hard he would struggle with an engineering degree. The maths was hard even in the diploma. Some of the diploma students left after the first year of college with a level 2 qualification to go straight into an apprenticeship. There are lots of options. I would say that the diploma gave tutoring in mechanical, electrical and aeronautical engineering. There was a separate course for computing/ IT engineers.

Sorry, I just re read your op and realised he is fab at maths! Obviously he will need English to get a level 3 or a degree but he will fly whatever option!

Many posters are not describing professional engineers. They are describing technicians with limited earnings. A crane engineer? That’s not a recognised engineering qualification! There are sadly people who take the p.ss out of grads bit the grads will earn more and have better prospects these days.

OP- look at what is required at universities that offer engineering degrees. Then you will know what they want! Look at Portsmouth, Sheffield, Southampton, Newcastle and Manchester to give an overview of what he could do and what qualifications are needed, BEng is lower than MEng. Old qualifications mentioned above are out of date. Maths is always a good A level to have and ideally Physics.

My advice would be either A levels or BTEC in science subjects, then if he's still determined to do an apprenticeship, consider an engineering degree apprenticeship for example warwick

@BubblesBuddy My son would never insult an engineering graduate. I was describing a non graduate route to the op who had asked about Btec. A fully qualified crane engineer can earn a very good salary and work all around the world. You are absolutely right that it isn't the same as being a chartered engineer and the jobs are entirely different. My eldest son has a first class degree in maths and he admires his younger brother so let's drop the career snobbery please.

@bubbles the taking the piss comment I made was to prove a point (which was obvious given the rest of my post) about what type of engineering was the op's DS considering.

Practical skills, are for many areas, more important than paper qualifications

BubblesBuddy. I have never completed my degree but have getting on for 15 years as a systems engineer. I've worked in product design and systems development for some of the UKs largest engineering companies across a range of scientific and technical fields. The idea that if you are not chartered or incorporated you are a technician is nonsense. I am unusual in the path that I followed and I would recommend a good solid BEng /MEng if the opportunity exists but it's not essential.
There is a tendency to refer to technicians as Engineers but I don't belive that has been a source of confusion here.

This is going back a long time, but my GCSEs were brill maths/science results, and predicted "2 Cs if you are lucky in English lit and language" . I got the Cs. Got 3 As and 2 Bs at Alevel (before most people did extra AS levels in first year of 6th form), got a first class scientific degree, then distinction at Masters in an engineering discipline.
If you can speak coherently, and use spell /grammar checks on computers for essay works, and make reasonable answers on exam questions, not being able to "analyse what Shakespere may or may not have meant by this random paragraph" doesn't mean you cannot pull together coherent enough essays on topics that interest you.

A degree may not be the right way forward, but struggling to achieve the required GCSE english pass, doesnt mean you cant fly later in life.

Good luck with whatever route he chooses.

I understand the difference between a real engineer and a technician. My dad is a fellow of the IET and DH has the job title engineer but no degree. Believe me it's been discussed!

Dad left school at 14, so didn't follow the university route, although that's what he'd prefer for DS2. DS is determined not to stay at school though and I'm not sure how we keep him motivated if we make him spend two years doing something he's already decided he will hate.

It is not career snobbery to say that being a chartered engineer is the best and highest qualification. Unfortunately we live in a country that thinks engineers are people who fix things and don’t need qualifications. At the best levels of employment they do and it’s incorrect to say you can be an engineer without the necessary qualifications. You would never ever say that about a doctor, or a barrister. Engineer is not a protected qualification and it should be. If you are not an incorporated engineer, you are technically a technician engineer. That doesn’t mean the money is bad, but others will be more highly valued in most areas of engineering whether it be mechanical, Civil or electrical.

Therefore the best advice isn’t what posters are doing many years on from not having a degree, it’s about now. I suggest looking at the Council for Engineering which gives the current career paths and BTec plus an A level in maths is fine. Just choose a degree that’s recognised. If you can get a degree apprenticeship then do. As DH is a consulting engineer and a sizeable employer, I do understand this profession. The better qualified who add the most value, get the most money and are responsible for others and their work. That’s mostly how it works. You don’t need welding, or any other manual skill such as taking a washing machine apart. Concentrate on getting a degree then you can progress.

A good apprenticeship plus some thought about direction will take him as far as he wants to go.

I would look at the businesses in your area, if you have a large engineering company then they will have apprenticeships and he will be exposed to other aspects of that industry. Jaguarlandrover give advice about what you need to get on their apprenticeships

www.jaguarlandrovercareers.com/job/Coventry-Digital-Technology-Solutions-Degree-Apprenticeship-Data-Analyst/492890901/

BTEC will get him to uni, but if he is ace at maths then definitely take A Level maths alongside, it's not easy but can be done. BTEC exposes you to a wider set of skills than A Level and has practical elements, I teach health and social care so practical for me is first aid, health and safety and a work placement.

Just had a look at one of the apprenticeships, you get paid £20 000 to work, go to uni part time and end up with a degree www.jaguarlandrovercareers.com/job/Coventry-Digital-Technology-Solutions-Degree-Apprenticeship-Software-Engineering/492891301/

Bubbles There is no requirement you be incorporated to be an engineer. The professional bodies try to spread this perception in order to boost membership, after all they are commercial organisations.

I've never felt the need to become incorporated, though I can see some benefits of membership I and many like me would resist any enforced role demarcation.

I really don’t think anyone else thinks like you, WhoWouldBeAnEngineer. Quite frankly that’s total rubbish. It’s about time Chartered and Incorporated Engineers stood up for themselves as professionals in the same way as Doctors, Lawyers and Vets do. It takes the same amount of time to qualify and it serves little purpose in having job titles that mean very little in terms of professionalism, education and overall ability because anyone can use it. We don’t put up with unqualified nurses or teachers either, so why “engineers”? Germany doesn’t put up with this and neither should we.

There is room for all levels of qualifications but the best route to earning the best money is via a degree whether that be via an apprenticeship or not. Jaguar Landrover apprenticeships are highly sought after so the biggest hurdle will be the op’s DS not wanting to stay at school and not being good enough at English. Therefore he will have to get the English, as you should in any recognised profession. He should be motivated to stay at school or college to get the better reward of getting a degree more quickly either via a degree apprenticeship or direct from university. If he won’t study, his earnings won’t be as good.

There are problems with leaving at 16 and your Dad should know this is not a quick route to qualify. In fact even a BEng degree is the slow route these days. It really has changed because now nearly every professional engineer is on their way to getting a degree. The MEng holders will be fast tracked. DH is a Fellow of 3 Engineering Institutions and qualifications haven’t held him back! So get your DS to understand what the modern day engineer is all about. Do some research and go into it with his eyes open.

Following with interest. DS wants to pursue engineering (his passion is cars but we're keen to ensure he has a broad insight into all types of engineering rather than just focusing on automative). His estimated grades are mostly 7s with an 8 in maths, English and RE. He's trying to work out which A levels to apply for, he's currently in Yr10.

I am a chartered engineer. 20 years experience. In my area there is a glass ceiling between those who have a degree and those who dont. Back in the 60s there was more social mobility and people could move across but graduate competition for the good jobs is strong so this move is no longer easy.
Therefore if he is academic in maths and science I would tutor him to get through english. If not go down the apprentice route.
I think you are right it is hard to get impartial advice. Good luck!

I should add being a professional engineer involves a lot of desk sitting and writing reports so of this is not his Forte it might not be for your son. I would suggest he do some work experience to see what kind of environment he would thrive in.

BTEC Engineering will get your son in to some really good uni’s but if he is really looking to do Electrical/Electronic Engineering he needs to do the A Level Maths.
After 2 years of not doing much maths at college my son really struggled with the maths part of the degree, and spent a lot of time playing catch up.

Almondio. The vast majority of Engineering degrees want Maths and Physics A levels. Further Maths is always helpful but not necessary. Chemistry for chemical engineering is vital. If he is interested in automotive engineering do as much work experience as possible to demonstrate his interest.

If he doesn’t do Automotive Engineering, look at Mechanical Engineering. It’s broader. Always remember that MEng (4 year) courses are best. Employment in motor sports, and even with car makers, is hard to get and hugely competitive so aim high. Look at degree apprenticeships too: but again these are sought after.