Getting into out of catchment church primary

[user987654]

I'm looking for advice from those who have managed to get their dc into a church school through church attendence (I'm not interested in opening a debate on the rights/wrongs of doing so, ultimately this is the system in our country atm).

I moved to an area end of 2017, have a preschool dc. The school we'd probably get is not great so would like to have a fighting chance of getting them into the church school, but we're not in catchment (I have checked and kids from this area do get in with church attendence).

Intend to go to church from now on and get them baptised there.

If you did this successfully, how early did you start attending? Did you get involved in the church any other ways?

Does it matter if only one parent goes?

Concern for me is that they don't seem to take a register so how are they monitoring church attendence in families?

Would be good to hear from people who did this and they still didn't get the school.

They will possibly look at length of attendance and it may be taken into consideration if massively over subscribed. A year isn’t very long to attend tbh. In all of the churches I’ve been in it’s fairly obvious who are the more committed church families and who are the ones only there for a school place.

Presumably that is a year prior to the application deadline, did you start attending regularly as soon as you arrived in the area? The admissions categories may put those living in the parish and/or that of specific churches ahead of attendance, with priority to those baptised. You need to be very clear on the criteria and how many were admitted in the category you expect to be placed in.

We had to also attend church twice a month for two years - at least one parent + child who was applying. DS was also christened at the church before 6 months and I was confirmed. We spent a lot of time going to church and I really enjoyed it and miss it. We moved out of London a coup,e of years later and the happy-crappy version doesn’t appeal to me as much.

We applied to a c of e secondary school. We had to ask the vicar to write a letter to support the application. I , and dc, have attended church regularly since they were babies so it was fine but the vicar did say he hated writing letters for families who were clearly only attending to get the school place. However, he knew it was the system so did write. He said quite a few ended up continuing to attend so it wasn't all bad !

Maisypops. It may be worth asking the vicar to write a letter to support application to other faith school ( if catholic). Our local Catholic school admits regular Christian attendance as the second criteria so many get in that way

Not catholic. Different protestant branch. We aren't at that point yet anyway so who knows what the rules will be like by then.

It is true that by attending for a year, or just starting to attend in order to get into the school, if the school is over subscribed, your action will push someone else further down the list (perhaps a longer term Church goer who lives further away)and someone who would have got in without your actions, won't get the place if you do.

That said, the admissions criteria are simply that....and if you meet them, you get the place. It's not really different to moving closer to a non-Church school to get the place....this also pushes someone off the bottom of the list if you are nearer than they are.

In my experience, seriously over subscribed Church schools make their Church attendance criteria stricter than mentioned here. So often there has to be attendance for 3 years, with perhaps 3/4 weeks attendance per month. catholic schools often have baptism criteria and you are higher up the criteria if they are baptised earlier.

I actually think that if Church schools really want to prevent people like OP just attending for a year and sneaking in, (fair enough if schools want to do this) then the Chirch criteria should be more strict....if you like, that makes it fairer to truly religious people....yes, I know that lots of people object to religious preference, but if it exists, it might as well genuinely give preference to the properly religious.
Where we are, there are 2 levels of Church reference for the highly sought after Secondary. There is the 'full Church reference' for those who attend at least twice per month for 3 years, then there is the Church reference for those 'known to the Church' ie those attending for less than 3 years or less regularly. In recent years only those with the full reference have got places.
The Church takes the view that they welcome anyone who comes to Church for any reason. They are glad to see them and as others have said, decent numbers get properly involved long term, even if some quickly drift away. The Church are used to people just turning up because they want a wedding or school place. It doesn't tend to be those working for the Church who feel annoyed about those parents who turn up at the key moment, but other parents who go to that Church, and even more likely, other parents who haven't got their act together to do it themselves.

In the end, as said previously, no criteria specifies a certain belief...that would be impossible....the only measurable thing is attendance, so if you meet the criteria, then you are entitled to the place.

They will possibly look at length of attendance and it may be taken into consideration if massively over subscribed.

No. They cannot use oversubscription criteria beyond what they've published. If the published criterion is one year, they cannot then prioritise (say) five years' attendance over a year's.

We regularly attend coe church but it's extremely unlikely that our dd will get a place at the attached outstanding church school for the reason that after cared for/sen/siblings/Church attendance, the school prioritises children who live in the diocese catchment irrespective of religious persuasion and we live outside of the catchment. Having looked at the previous few years stats our dd is no where near getting in because all the remaining places go to diose children - our church attendance is basically irrelevant. In fact, our dd has a better chance of getting into a nearby Catholic school which on the face of it has a stricter church attendance/baptism requirement as its a larger school and we are very close to it so may just scrape in on its final criterion of distance.

Also, since I had my dd, the school changed its admission policy going from once a month attendance for 12 months to twice a month for two years prior to application.

No. They cannot use oversubscription criteria beyond what they've published. If the published criterion is one year, they cannot then prioritise (say) five years' attendance over a year's.

You’ve misunderstood my point. I didn’t mean they’d change the criteria if they were oversubscribed one year.
I meant a constantly oversubscribed school often has stricter rules of admission and church attendance generally. The school I used to work at had a much stricter policy on church attendance prior to application and admission.

Our church required 12 attendances in the year before entry to get the letter. We moved churches to get that and have since stayed at the church and been there a few years now.

The Church are used to people just turning up because they want a wedding or school place.
As a clergy person I’d view these two things as very different. People don’t just start turning up to get married and then leave - the rules are very clear and couples have to habitually worship for a certain period to qualify to marry there. This is all very transparent and has no implication on other regular committed church goers. I’m marrying 6 couples this year who are doing this and it’s fine.
In a church with lots of families it’s harder to see who is committed to church and who isn’t, which is why I am pleased about stricter policies, including the length of time of attendance. I’ve had to write letters and sign forms and I am very honest with the information I give.

If church is so important why haven't you been going since you moved. I hope longterm churchgoers whose faith awe really important to them don't miss out because. You fancy go8ng to this school.

Our RC school used to have very strict criteria, at least on paper. Child had to be baptised and live within parish, but within that group already the school was usually oversubscribed. So church attendance came into play, with people attending 4 times/month getting first priority, 2-3x/month -> second priority, and if places still available then, 1x/month ->third priority (all for two years). Finally baptised children whose parents were not regular church goers. Siblings only got taken into account if there was oversubscription within e.g. 2-3x/month church goers.

However. There was no registration, and therefore no 'proof' of attendance/frequency and duration of attendance. The vicar would sign the supplementary information forms required, quite openly based on his 'impression'. Also quite openly, he stated that he was more likely to 'notice' someone frequently attending if they had a child with them, as it was a fairly large parish with about 500 people attending mass each weekend (despite the criteria explictly requiring one parent to attend mass, not the child). He said that they'd chosen not to have a register in order to encourage people to bring their children to mass to make sure they'd be noticed.
So in actual fact it did not matter how frequently or for how long you'd gone to mass. The only thing that mattered was making yourself noticed by the vicar. Bring your child along, sit in a exposed/visible spot, seek a conversation with the vicar after mass. Do that roughly 2x/month for a good year and you'd be more likely to get that 4x/month for two years signature (your attendance would be over-estimated by the vicar) than if you'd actually been attending weekly since forever but sitting quietly in a back row and slinking away after mass (the vicar would only rarely have noticed you and underestimate your attendance).

I always thought the school left itself wide open to appeals but there were rarely any brought (and never won). I think people hesitated to appeal on this ground because they'd effectively be saying that the vicar's word is not good enough. Which in turn doesn't give the impression of being a faithful believer.

Meanwhile the vicar has left, and the admissions criteria changed to no longer consider frequency of mass attendance. The school has lost a lot of popularity and is no longer full with catholics, let alone catholics who live within the parish and attend mass 2-3x/month minimum. They now prefer a more 'inclusive' approach, that catholics should feel the school is 'for them' even if they do not attend mass regularly.

What I would say is that, once you’ve got your child in and if you stop then attending church, please remove yourself from their electoral register.

CoE churches have to pay fees to the CoE dependant on the number of people on this register. So many start attending church to get into the school, getting on the register, and drop out once they either get their child in, or don’t get child in and go to another school. Leaving the church with an artificially inflated register that doesn’t reflect the true number of parishioners who support the church through collections, and that they have to pay extra to the CoE for. The churches can’t just take these ghost parishioners off either as have to wait 3 years.

I have been a church warden at a large church with a sought after primary attached. You see the families start attending in the November, three years before the January application is required. We have three Sunday school groups because theyvrealise the very best cofe secondaries require three years min too and one awards points up to ten for various forms of involvement: PCC, choir, confirmation, etc. I lnow mothers who have polished the silver for ten years in a jolly team.

My view is to give the insincere ones jobs to ease the burden on the rest of us. One in five families stick and all the dc are potentially tomorrow's congregation.

Sincere or not the parents are invested in the children and their education and that's a positive for a school community.

I agree this is an incredibly offensive thing to do and is massively misleading. It is lying about your beliefs and massively insulting to those who do hold the beliefs of whichever church you plan on crashing.

Would you go to a mosque, put on a hijab and follow ramadan tell the Iman you were all in and trick him into signing paperwork, pretending to be muslim? Do you see how offensive and wrong this is?

For any faith, just because it is easier to lie and hide your lie for a time, does not make it any different to doing this.

@brilliotic

A RC mass with a vicar?

one awards points up to ten for various forms of involvement: PCC, choir, confirmation, etc. I lnow mothers who have polished the silver for ten years in a jolly team.

Well that's illegal!

Not if they have always done it titchy Greycoat in Westminster.

My DC is going to a CofE school next year. We aren't religious but got a place on the distance criteria. It wasn't out first choice school. He's visited a few times and has now expressed an interest in going to church so we will take him.

We probably will go to church between now and when DC2 is of school age (4 years time) as I can't risk having them at different schools. The religious criteria overrides siblings at this school. I know it's not morally the ideal thing to do but two children at two different schools would be a nightmare.

RC rather than CofE but for us it was:
Baptismal certificate (it’s dated btw. Will show if child is 4 years rather than 4 months old).
Priest reference at attended parish.
So as RC baptised children they were still high up the criteria even though out of parish.

Mine go to out of catchment Church school. Me and dh were married in the parish, babies baptised in the parish, and we attend mass in the parish. Not that it matters. What matters is meeting the crietria.

One thing I will say op, is to be careful about holding an outstanding ofsted to such a high priority. My dc’s school was outstanding and then had an ofsted shortly after ds started reception, they got requires improvement. I would look at the ‘poor’ schools in your area and make your own mind up. I would rather my children started at a requires improvement school that was on its way up than an outstanding school that are behind the times and stuck in their ways.

@LuMarie, my bad - I meant deacon, no idea why I wrote vicar. Must have had my head elsewhere (been reading a book with a vicar as a main character, maybe it was on my mind when I was writing?)

I am not RC myself (my other half is) and don't have much faith altogether tbh, and definitely do not understand all the hierarchies and different roles and jobs within the churches, so for me that is an easy to make mistake.

In our case I do not feel we as a family cheated or pretended. I do attend mass with the rest of my family despite not 'believing' but I do not pretend to believe, and treat other people's belief with utmost respect.

@ontheroses - the schools adjudicator some years ago required Greycoat to remove 'polishing the silver' type activities from its admissions criteria:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/294950/ada2449thegreycoathospitalwestminster_29nov13.pdf

Which they have.